Where is the inbound coming from? If he’s a straight in, and depending on where the downwind aircraft is, they may be number one. I was assuming they were coming in for a downwind, which would automatically make him number 2.
Aircraft past the runway threshold are no longer counted in sequence. Assuming you want to sequence B-INARY behind the aircraft on downwind, state [pattern entry], number two, traffic to follow is on left downwind. You don’t need to take aircraft that has touched down into account.
Ok we are really splitting hares here. It is up to the controller to count the one on short final as #1 or not. If by the time you press the button and it sends they are already down I usually don’t count them. You also do not need to resequence every time there is a landing.
@BinaryChess many times drawing it out will really help to see the sequences or help when asking. It is all about positioning and speed. Who can get there first.
MaxSez: GUESS WHAT? IF has an established “Transition Altitude”.
What’s it? Transitioning at the established height does not interfere with Arrivals or Departures.
The answer for B-Bianary is slow him down, continue… Or 360 if he does not comply or a Ghost, Expedite RW Exit for the leaders. Dealers Choice!
But what will be the Transition Altitude in this case?
@BinaryChess. 050AGL is the established ALT for all Transition Alt all IF Controlled Airspace.
Here’s are posts from the past which answers the question on transition height. It’s in a “Tutorial” authored by ChiefPilot Denton, Always research the Tutorials, most answers are there.
Apr’16: MaxSez: See Denton’s Transition Tutorial. IF Transition height is established at 050AGL for all Regions.
“Apr '16 - …d ATC communications, as well as support IFATC, I would like to clear up one situation that is often misunderstood, and that is when to request for a transition through an airspace. On Infinite Flight, ATC airspace has been established to be from SURFACE TO 5000 FT above the airport and a 5 mile radius”
@Maxmustang need to clear at what altitiude must be clear transition in this case
@BinaryChess… See revision my last Post this Topic.
Ok so you will give a transition at 050AGL?
This is the airspace, not TA
sorry for my insistence but could you elaborate a answer to both of the questions?
- At the current height the F-22s are flying on the downwind entry, 3,000+ feet would be an appropriate transition. Minimal VFR rules state that only 500 feet of clearance is necessary to avoid a near miss. Subsequently, if the F-22s were lower at the proper pattern height, then you’d be able to give a lower transition. As long as you keep the 500 rule of thumb in mind, you’ll be fine.
- B-INARY will need a sequence at some point, but the answer varies on what’s happening in the pattern. At that distance, the dynamics can change suddenly and rapidly. Though, at that specific point in time, I would sequence B-INARY as #2. It’s not really worth it accounting for aircraft on short final since they’ll already be on the ground by the time B-INARY confirms his sequence.
Mark was referring to the maximum airspace height of an airport in IF, which is 5,000 feet AGL. Anything flying at or above that height does not require a transition and thus does not need to call tower.
Thanks for the very instructive reply:
Are they subsequently applied to IF? I have always heard that the minimal Vertical separation for transition is 1000 ft
That’d be for IFR (3 miles / 1000 ft). :)
Aircraft flying standard patterns are usually VFR, so different rules apply.
So transition is granted at 2000ft AAL when VFR?
MaxSez: Everybody has an interpretation. The Standards are Set by the IFATC Manual and the data included in Tutorials published by IF/FDS only. This Topic Responses are a glaring view of “Notional” Rules and procedures that have not been vetted for Transitions (Approved Fly thru of Controlled Airspace) For example for years when requesting Transition I’ve had a O50AGL IFATC Approval granted when Transition which I do offen since VFR Corredor‘s are not published for B’s. Yet Pattern Altitudes are discussed relating to Transitioning aircraft, a conundrum!
The Chief Pilots “Approach/Transition” Tutorial is clear. Pattern Altitudes are not the same as Transition Altitude ect. IFATC and the duty experts must stop issuing Forum guidance based on individual experience, notions and opinions. If it’s not in the IFATC Manual and IF/FDS produced Tutorials it’s supposition.
I co-wrote the IFATC Manual and many other IF procedures, so I am well-versed in what standards we utilize. :)
My initial response covers the scope of the questions @BinaryChess asked. Thanks for your understanding!
Please see highlighted response.