Takeoff waiting lines and ATC and pilots

ATC
#1

Hello,

In the past month using live, I have noticed that everybody taxis to the end of the runway no matter what plane they are in. What I mean is that there is no need to use the full length of the runway when you are in a CRJ-200 (for example) unless the runway length indeed is short enough that you need to do so.

Being in a CRJ-200 (once again this applies to smaller aircraft in general), I taxied and held short of the runway at a taxiway that was not at the very end of the runway and I requested takeoff clearance. I was ordered to hold short of the runway which was what I expected. I know that just because I was at an empty taxiway leading to the runway doesn’t mean that I can cut everyone else that was waiting in the taxi way at the end of the runway. However, I took note of where I would have been in line if I did go to the taxiway that everyone else used. I waited for the aircraft that would have been in front of me to take off, and then I prepared to line up on the runway. However, I was not given takeoff clearance. This is exactly what I was fearing. The planes that had started taxi to the runway way after me were already receiving takeoff clearance while I was still holding short of the runway. I was starting to fear that planes would keep streaming to the last taxiway at the end of the runway and I would never get takeoff clearance (of course eventually I would, but you know). In total I waited about 15 to 20 minutes to get takeoff clearance. I am not complaining about the time it took, I am complaining about the fact that people who go to the end of the runway despite their aircraft size seem to get priority over the people who hold short of the runway at a realistic position on the runway.

I’m not saying that I should have gotten priority over everyone else, I’m saying that I should have been given takeoff clearance after the people that I would have been behind if I had used the same taxiway as anyone else.

Generally this is just a plea to the pilots, to not always use the taxiway at the end of the runway and crowd a taxiwayespecially if you don’t need that much runway length.
This is also a plea to the ATC, to not make people at other taxiways wait longer than they should to receive takeoff clearance. Also if an aircraft sends another request for takoff a while after they sent it the first time, it would be nicer to say “callsign XX hold short of runway XX” instead of “Callsign XX, avoid sending duplicate messages”. I feel like the second message should only be used if a user is requesting something too often or within too short of a time interval between the original message and the second message.
I’m not trying to name names or point fingers, but just be more aware.


If this topic is in the wrong category, please let me know.

This was on the expert server.

2 Likes
#2

Unless ATIS specifically says “no intersection departures allowed”, pilots can and should depart as they can on the runway. We typically will not include “intersection departures allowed” as this is implied.

As for the “avoid duplicate messages”, just a reminder you should only request takeoff when you’re next in line. If told to hold short, there is a reason.

If you are flying on expert with IFATC, rest assured we will not forget about you, or let others cut you off. The controller probably just got busy; we make mistakes too!

6 Likes
#3

Talking about the duplicate messages, I personally don’t enjoy when aircraft request for takeoff in an interval of 2 minutes (this includes asking for takeoff again after being told to line up), I don’t forget about my traffic and i believe no other IFATC does too, if i see that you have been holding short in an interception i will give you the takeoff clearance according to who you were following, I personally recommend DM’ing said controller and discussing with him.

1 Like
#4

I really am not sure how to fix this. The issue with duplicates is that for those of us that do take note of exactly who you were behind, you’re forcing us to manage your hold short, and every time we have to r-iterate, we have to stop managing the traffic which hasn’t received clearance yet.

I wish I could promise that every ATC you’ll ever encounter would take note of where you are in the line (or, ATCs, even let you go ahead of a 388 if they need to expedite a departure and can’t wait for him to shamble onto the runway), but obviously not a promise I can make. But, that said, I’m not concerned with how nice the message is when I have to re-iterate something I’ve already said.

We already have enough duplicates from pilots who are full length who can’t figure out why they’re holding short with a plane on a half-mile final to encourage even more of it.

A plea for ATC to take more notice, I can live with. A plea for XCubs not to taxi full-length, ditto. A plea to allow duplicates, no.

(But, ATCs, please do take note of where these departures are in the line. “No intersection departures” is not meant to be queue management.)

2 Likes
#5

I disagree with your thing about how smaller planes dont need the full runway. From a 162 to a 787 they have all taxied to the end of the runway no matter what runway was in use. It’s good to use the entire ru way 1, because if something goes wrong you have the maximum amount of room to stop, 2 you never know if the winds are different further down and you have to take up a lot more runway than anticipated to get off the ground, also applies to weight<.

1 Like
#6

I agree, I have gotten ghosted for 3 minutes

#7

I just wanted to clarify a few things. The second time that I requested takeoff was roughly 10 to 15 minutes after the first one. I don’t think pilots should be allowed to send duplicates either (for me this means sending two of the same message within less that like a 2-3 minute time interval). Also, I understand that the controller never forgot about me (or at least I hope he didn’t XD). The reason I sent the second message was because I had already waited so long at the hold short line and people theoretically behind me had already started receiving clearance (its not like I was ever behind any other aircraft on that taxiway leading to the runway). Also I don’t expect ATC to micro manage and remember who was behind who, but they should still have a general idea. If a guy just came to a stop behind other planes while taxiing, someone who has been holding short on a different taxiway should receive takeoff clearance before that other guy. I would just like it if ATC would keep a general idea of where each person is, how long they have been waiting etc… ATC doesn’t have to be too specific.

Anyway, there is some huge respect that goes toward ATC. Yesterday I decided to control TS1 KLAX Ground, oh man… I don’t even want to think about it XD. I had like zero clue where everyone was, and I was practically just blindly clearing people to go and pushback or taxi. I bet there were like 3 collisions on ground that day at KLAX lol. I gotta say, the ATC menu is devilishly hard to navigate…

#8

Hey,
Just adding to what other Controlers have stated,
I allways use timers, if someone requests something somewhere and I can’t approve it, I will set them a 5 minute timer so that I will be reminded of their presence should I forget them. If after the 5 minutes nothing has changed I will set the next one. This way I can check the time you sent your request and compare it with other people (in this case on takeoff) making it possible to see who was first. So like the others have said sending dupilcate messages is realy not neccessary.
Have a good day,
Oskar

1 Like
#9

In this scenario, it would be better to select “Resend last message” which should be “Holding short runway XX”. The reason we tell you to avoid sending duplicate messages is because we haven’t forgotten about you.

Chances are if we are taking a while to get you departed we are busy, and don’t want unnecessary messages clogging the frequencies.

#10

That’s typically just another way of saying “hey, I’m here.” No difference really.

15 minutes at an intersection is a little different though. That’s a lot of time and it did seem the controller was…busy? That’s a pretty rare circumstance.

I’m more concerned with people who are first in line full length for two minutes or even LUAW. (That one blows my mind. You’re on the runway…obviously I’m aware of you.)

3 Likes
#11

This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.