I hope that the Training Server will be taken more seriously.
Obviously, not as serious as ES. But not as casual as Casual.
My wish is that if they incur a lot of violations, they get demoted to Grade 1, which will reduce their access to CS again, and they’ll stay there until they learn to behave. I’m sure they don’t mind since they’re just playing anyway. (e.g. if they want to grade up, they have to learn how/play seriously).
I’m unsure about the logistics, but maybe something about the violations in the last 30/90 days or so, and/or violations to landing ratio.
Grade 2 should be easy to get, but should also be easy to lose.
A lot of pilots on the TS should be in CS. I know TS is not supposed to be as realistic as ES…
But for example, when you’re eyeing to be in the IFATC, it’s a headache to practice controlling by yourself (hence tracking threads, formal training, which are all very helpful, btw).
And/or if you’re an aspiring pilot who wants to fly as real as you can (while waiting for Grade 3), then you shouldn’t have people blocking your runways, etc.
IDK, there are a lot of threads of people with feedback about ES, and sure, ES should have Expert pilots and controllers…
(But no, I still won’t choose the right gate/livery/callsign/route, can’t be bothered. 🤪)
But this one’s for TS.
It shouldn’t be called Training Server if the pilots/controllers aren’t ‘Training’. Sometimes it feels like it’s Casual but with ATC, or better: TS = Troll Server.
I 100% agree with everything you’re saying. I have had a multitude of different cases while trying to be professional on TS. Regarding your statements, sadly nothing can be done at the moment to help TS become more professional. The best thing id recommend is to try and get onto IFATC. But Regarding everything, i completely agree with everything
I regularly fly training server, and I have to say, the lack of authority makes it so much different. In fact, the trolls know that they are immune from ATC and specifically go to controlled airports just so they can annoy controllers.
Definitely agree with pretty much everything you said. Stricter or maybe actually make it a training server or another name that ‘training’ can easily be switched with, ‘teaching.’ I mean to help with training or teaching for those who may eventually fly on ES. I’d be more than happy with just a message after you hit ‘Start,’ or that is in addition to the ‘Welcome message’ that you cannot bypass for several seconds that reads something along the lines of:
“• General and Brief Departure Step Guide:
Request Pushback
Request Taxi
Change to tower frequency
Request to takeoff only when first in line.
• General and Brief Arrival Step Guide:
Request to Land
Exit Runway
Contact Ground
Choose parking or Request taxi to parking.
Have a safe flight and thank you, good day!”
Again, I put ‘General and Brief’ because if departure, approach, or center are staffed then the previous controller can send ‘Contact [insert specific station] on [insert frequency].’
Also, I added “general” because obviously not all parking spots require a pushback. Though, some time ago I was given the, “Please check user guide…,” message for requesting to taxi prior to requesting a pushback from a spot that did not require one. So, for that reason, if I don’t start at a place that requires a pushback, I still request it. I apologize that I don’t recall the ES controller, though I requested a pushback from a spot that did not require one and they sent the taxi to runway ## immediately.
I have an issue with pushing back, first, because of being warned and, second, because if the first thing training server users do is request to taxi—when not at a spot that doesn’t require a pushback—they are starting the whole process incorrectly. And if no one in the training server can teach them that because not everyone reads the user guide, then what happens if say I start at Tom Bradley Gate 148 on ES and request to taxi without requesting pushback?
Another idea is to lock the training server behind a written exam. But IDK if that can be fully automated. I imagine it would require manual work for a mod or someone else to give access to passers.
But imagine it’s automated… That would keep the fighter jet kids out of TS.
The trolls will still be able to get through, though.
And that doesn’t address the people who already have access. Just throwing ideas here
Sorry, but I must add, @JeppyG —to be 1,000,000,000% clear the ‘sorry’ is not disagreeing with you in any way, shape, or form:
Didn’t really make sense to put this into Features , but I think I much needed modification to the Training Server needs to be addressed. Again, sorry to keep bringing this up, though being a former tutor it really confuses me because you cannot teach or train someone if you cannot inform them of a misunderstanding in a dedicated training environment. I feel as though I fail miserably as a 'trainer" (4937 operations), when I cannot help users avoid the next step in ES and most likely receive a CUG. Though, ‘training’ is a very losses term in some of these instances. (It very well can be a misunderstanding or it could be complete trolling.) Which should be addressed with some sort of violation reporting.
I would assume with an underestimated amount that not every single level 3 report is a previous troller on TS, but at least 51% do not care to listen to anyone.
Do I necessarily blame the trollers? With only about .000001% empathy, but (most importantly) IFATC deserves better for the obvious time and dedication it takes to become IFATC.
I screenshot or screen record the time, note the time of the trolling and I’m not looking for complete ban from IF, but something.
I’m not sure if it’s annoying or disappointing it is for IFATC for how many times they send CUG. But it seems like it occurs a lot and it’s quite annoying. Do I necessarily blame the trollers? With only about .00001% empathy because they weren’t warned or taught in the moment.
Though, first, to be clear… Am I guilty as charged? Absolutely, I got a CUG the other day, but guess what? I learned the next time and didn’t repeat my mistake. Have I gotten it because I accidentally hit the wrong transmission? Absolutely! Did I say ‘I’m sorry,’ call myself an idiot, tell myself, ‘Well done, idiot,’ roll my eyes at myself and call myself an idiot again? You betcha’! (Is saying I’m slightly self critical an rather accurate statement? Yeahhhh…)
Maybe a point system for violations, 10 points per cycle/month or week. (Merely an example for the hypothetical.) Removal of check user guide or change to a more serious tone/show of attitude—still with the same premise of needing to learn the mistake whether honest or not—again, clearly guilty as charged.
-Check user guide: “Okay, you are informed of an issue or misunderstanding to proper procedure.”
-[Added: Speed violation equal to 0.5 points] once [insert amount of points] is reached = Level 1 violation.
-Level 1 violations → 1 point, Please follow instructions.
-Level 2 → 2 points, you were warned, you continue to deviate, and at this point on ES you should know or have an idea.
Do I have a level 2? You betcha’! My dumb self wasn’t paying attention and taxiied through people!
Did I appeal and fail? You betcha’! I said myself that if it were real I would have put upwards up 250 in danger.
-Level 3 → 3 points, please follow instructions or you will be reported.
—Point system concept continued…:
–Sum of all the points in the levels.
3 strikes…your out 9 points for three level 3 violations and etc.
Restrict for X amount of weeks or months.
Insert higher amount of points for level 1 violations and lesser total of points. 16 points? (Perfect square, sorry. Along with 9, sorry again.)
Not as official of a title of ATC, but I’d love to be a ‘Trainer’ on ‘Training Server.’
-Should it require some sort of training, I would understand and not be opposed whatsoever!
Just waste approximately an hour plus of my time? Wouldn’t doubt at all, but I cannot go without saying—yet again—that ‘training’ without teaching isn’t training.
Is the correct procedure, “Request to taxi,” “Request to taxi and request to pushback,” or, “Request to pushback, [pause], request to taxi.”
[Just state:] Hold short of said runway and contact tower.
Tower Procedure:
[Just state:] Lineup and Wait means to enter runway/pass hold short line, turn strobe lights on, [pause on runway], wait for clearance to takeoff from tower.
[Just state:] Once airborne, request to change frequency or comply with ATC instructions to ‘Send and switch’/change to departure or approach if said controller may not be comfortable with staffing both.
-[State:]
Assuming all stations are staffed:
Contact Departure (If not staffed, contact approach.)
Contact Center when informed to ‘Send and switch.’
Totally understand if they’re not comfortable! It is a lot! I am not comfortable with staffing approach, departure, or center stations.
I think I see your point. Correct me if I sound like I don’t.
But a point system, while has its potential… I imagine it’d take a complete overhaul of the reporting system.
Yeah, some controllers on the Expert Server like to issue reports in this way if possible (skipping some/all depending on the situation):
Check User Guide (CUG) → Please Follow Instructions (PFI) → Please Follow Instructions Or You Will Be Reported (PFI-R) before reporting.
The problem is, I think 80% of the pilots who got CUG didn’t actually checked the guide or talked to the controller who issued the CUG and asked what they did wrong.
Yes, even the expert server pilots don’t know what they’re doing:
They file a flight plan and announce they’re remaining in the pattern.
They announce position as a way of announcing they’re inbound.
They request their approach above FL180, etc.
But this thread is about the Training Server being more conducive to learning vs. just being full of trolls because ATC can’t do anything to the unruly pilots.
I’m all for your ideas on making the TS better, whatever those are.
I’ve never been in the TS for some time, and as an IFATC Specialist, I can’t even control TS even if I want to. And I only fly in TS when there are ATC Trainees who want to join IFATC or want to improve their controlling skills, etc. This is why I’ve lost my passion for this TS thing. I’d avoid TS at all costs. If I want to fly outside the expert server, I’d rather do it on Casual.
Yeah, I guess I should have specified the wasting my time for understandable reasons because, as you said, a complete overhaul would take an immense amount of time and a immense amount of more complexity than developers already do to make this app as amazing as it is every day!
And I think that’s a problem… IFATC are clearly able to control on ES and can send CUG, correct? Is that not a teachable moment that can be at least attempted to be addressed right on the spot? If I can’t teach it or another serious user can’t teach it, would you say it’s likely that they’ll repeat the issue that is easily taught in the moment instead of later? (“Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” -(Supposedly) Einstein.) And we’ll hear CUG time, and time, and time again. Again, more complexity than developers would devote an immense amount of time… but check user guide… for what? Again… Complexity… Not saying they should add a link (stretching an extremely unlikely and impractical resolution it actually ‘teach’ and help users learn), but, 'Hey! Check the user guide for taxiing procedures, … for takeoff procedures…, for prior to departure procedures." I (one who was given CUG) know(s) where to go in the guide at least for those who may find the user guide at least slightly overwhelming.
Yeah I missed the word ‘didn’t’ on my post. I meant to say that I feel like pilots who get CUG don’t even bother.
People get to ES uneducated, which is a big part of the problem IMO. And one way to rectify that problem is by utilizing TS to educate pilots before they’re ‘ready’ for ES.
IFATC people have to go through tests to be able to control on the ES.
Pilots should have something similar, so they can stay on TS, and be prepared for ES. (Stay on TS = If you’re not seriously training for ES, here’s a violation of some sorts, and play with your fighter jet on Casual instead, you can have unlimited fun there. But don’t ruin the experience for pilots and controllers who really want to learn.)
But yeah, logistics. Who will train/teach? How would this be possible? ETC.
And I know it isn’t in either of your hands and again stretching it for any type of solution—though just like other games with in-game chat things NEED to be censored (As Charlie Brown said, “Good grief!”=immense more complexity— such as in-flight chat: ‘Hey! In the future, proper procedure is pushback then taxi. Thx!’ Or a possible much more similar to another transmission, “Please request pushback, then taxi.” If they only request pushback then commence taxi… Cool! They got it right, but ‘Hey!,’ we have a teachable moment! There’s a ‘Please wait for clearance before taxiing.’
… and I would think proven serious users (4000+ operations, ~1200 flight hours) who may not have time to dedicate as much effort due to personal work schedules/life in general would be at least be bottom tier considered for such a position if IFATC with the ability to control expert server are (I would think) potential teachers who have gone through training because they learned correct procedure to able to at least a the minimum say, ‘Hey! Think you made a mistake’/‘CUG,’ from time-to-time.
‘Training’ server is not ‘training’ if incorrect procedure is used and nothing is taught. The first synonyms in Merriam-Webster Thesaurus beginning with the highest relevance for the second entry: “Teaching, education, schooling, instruction, tutoring, tuition, preparation, tutelage, and development.” [Sorry!! Source: TRAINING Synonyms: 153 Similar and Opposite Words | Merriam-Webster Thesaurus] I will end my hours upon hours of rambling and (most likely) not even considered for a few seconds with one of my favorite unverified quotes for understandable and not understandable reasons: “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” -Albert Einstein
Absolutely we need a better training server. I don’t think TS controllers can be given too much power (like ghosting for instance) since after all, anyone who can fly on TS can also control on TS and be just as dumbfounded as a troll pilot. But there are many controllers who are either legitimately training for IFATC or trying to be serious and help pilots reach Expert, and I cannot agree more that with controllers unable to do the latter, the TS really can’t function properly as a “training” server. There are two things in particular I want to see to improve this:
ATC command additions: Bring back the “Please follow instructions” command to TS, even if it doesn’t end with “or you will be reported”. It at least lets the pilot know what is going on, and if the pilot keeps this behavior until expert, they can’t say they weren’t told so earlier. A few more specific ones like “please wait for clearance before pushing back” or “please follow assigned pushback/taxiway route” (with the new drag and taxi and auto pushback features). Some such commands already exist, so I don’t see a reason not to add more.
Increase the strictness of violations: in theory, pilots are supposed to receive a level 1 violation for exceeding 35 knots on the taxiway, however in practice, I have seen plenty of TS trolls takeoff from the gate in fighter jets without violations. The speed of fighter jets (as well as the slow takeoff speeds of some GA aircraft) makes it possible to takeoff from a taxiway without violations. A takeoff from a taxiway (as well as exceeding speed limits by >50 knots) should immediately constitute a level 2 violation. The current L1 violations can be seen as legitimate mistakes pilots can be forgiven for and learn from later, however, there isn’t a scenario in which the above L2 violations aren’t trolling at least to some extent. Mistakes from pilots should be tolerated on TS (hence training) but trolling shouldn’t.
Perhaps in the interest of forgiveness to a certain extent we can reset a pilot’s L2 violation count once they reach grade 3, however, I still think there are those two scenarios in which system issued L2 violations (or at the very least automatic disconnects from TS) are warranted.
