SIDs and STARs

@FBWFTW

IFR charts

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Do we know where the navaids currently come from in IF? I have noticed IF doing periodic updates to their navaids but a lot of fixes are absent.

Especially at KATL the fixes are all screwed up.

At least if the navaids in IF are upto date then flying those SIDS and STARs is possible as most of the times the fixes of the SID or STAR are missing.

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This is a nice thought, but it’s really hard to implement, and not as simple as you say.

You need to remember that SID/STAR procedures are just a series of waypoints. In order to get these waypoints to correctly make up the SID/STAR, you would need the latest published AIRAC cycle. This is VERY expensive.

Secondly, would you make it mandatory to use, or as an optional feature to add on? Only P-RNAV1 capable planes with an FMC and hopefully RNP can fly SID/STARs. Would you make people not wanting to pay for that capability do so? The SID/STAR procedures only work if the majority of the people use them. It is basically to reduce controller workload.

And also, if you want SID/STARs, you would also need a valid route with these procedures. And how would you go about the fact that the SID and STAR in Europe and the “ICAO world” is assigned to you by the controller?

well I’ll surely empty a vote for this feature. nice request but it would be unproductive unless all the fixes and vor are included. we still have many regions with no fixes at all.

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Similar to the ability for IF to sync to a yoke from a pc using blue tooth. Would it be possible for IF to have a switchable database and sync via Bluetooth the waypoints from Navigraph from ones pc. This way the user could toggle (1) from existing IF way points (2) Navigraph waypoints from local pc via Bluetooth?

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Awesome will be looking forward to that-I usually use the taxi/gate charts and the descent calculator.

@Chinmay_Erram they’re crowdsourced and added in by the Nav editing team. I usually send my fixes to Adrien. He’s awesome… I have a list of fixes for KATL to “fix” or correct if you will-if you’d like to assist for now, I can plug you into either the iCloud note I have going or setup a google doc.
KATL is a tall order my friend.

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First: As pointed out above, only those who wish to subscribe to the accurate up to date cycles would have to do so. Nobody is going to force someone to subscribe.
Second: Routes are filed in the ICAO world by the dispatcher-generally speaking the European SID/STAR’s go to a specific runway transition eg: at EDDF you’ve got the
ROLIS series of STAR’s which are numbered to take you to a specific runway transition via a specific route. It would be plainly apparent to controllers who’s on what procedure.

The YouTube video below is an example of an RNAV STAR (ROBUC3 KBOS) that was flown by the numbers to the final fix and then used real world altitude and speed controls after the final fix 4000’ and 210kt to intercept then maintain 170kt to the marker.

As you’ll see-the planes come right along perfectly spaced out down the glide slope in this case without a controller present. This would reduce the workload and neaten things up-at the same time, Twr/Departure could continuously launch aircraft flying the SID and not worry about them getting in the way of the descending aircraft on the STAR.

https://youtu.be/eTn4NViYuN4

The relevant portion of the demonstration begins at ~27:30 in and continues thru to the landing.

You’ll notice around 36:00 an aircraft that took off climbing out over us. Had that A/C flown the “active” SID-he would’ve been nowhere near us.

At 42:00 or so, both aircraft are fully established and descend at 170kt to VOCUS before reducing to landing speed. (If you take a listen to KBOS Final Approach on LiveATC.net you’ll notice this is a common command given almost all the time when it’s busy: “Cleared ILS RWY XX maintain 170 or greater til VOCUS/RIPIT/MILTT/NIMOY or 5 mile final.)

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My point is sids stars all over google I still think IF best slm with room for enhancement

Yes the CHARTS are all over google, but the waypoints in IF aren’t up to date-as pointed out by @Chinmay_Erram KATL is a bit of a mess as is KSFO and quite a few other large airports.

I have active Navigraph subscription and I will see if I can get the fixes coordinates for KATL or KSFO or any major airports. I am willing to help if it will fix the problems.

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Gonna PM you

That’s the first problem though. How would you be able to have SID’s when people haven’t got the same waypoints? If you are a real pilot as I understand from your comment, you know that the SID identifiers, procedures and names change a lot. You wouldn’t be able to utilize the SID/STAR system if people have vastly different AIRAC cycles…

Of course correct, I should clarify that by “ICAO world”, i actually mean EASA, but that’s a different story… :) but the active SID/STAR is assigned by the ATC, because the European SID’s are mostly runway dependent, like you say. The dispatcher wouldn’t know the wind or runway configurations that far in the time, and the routing starts in most cases with the initial waypoint (which corresponds with the SID identifier. EASA > FAA).

The whole concept of SID/STARs is to put them on a standardized route to reduce controller workload. How would that work if people haven’t got the same SID’s because they haven’t got the same waypoints?

Generally speaking-when a sim product gets navigraph data-it’s up to the current cycle when it’s released. As i mentioned in a previous post-should a deal be done to bring navigraph data to IF, there would likely be a baseline AIRAC cycle which would bring things in line, further updates would be on the user. Not to mention-there’s always the option to restrict it to expert.

Hmm, that’s true. But even one cycle would be REALLY expensive, I think I talked to the devs about this once. And the last free Navigraph AIRAC is 16XX i think, which wouldn’t include all the current airports.

The last free one is updated on a rolling basis-it’s currently 1703 on simbrief iirc. It’s something that’s been circled around on for quite some time and has interest as evidenced by this thread being renewed every month or two. I may very well do some digging myself and see what it may take technology and expense wise. As for the expense-see my post above re: “IF Professional with Navigraph $XX.XX/month”

@Mats_Edvin_Aaro

I think 1703 was donated to Simbrief by Navigraph… :/ Yeah, I have had this thought for a long time too - but it would be very far-fetched… But never say never!!

Let me get a vote free. We NEED this cause with the 737 rework its gonna be osuthwest most ok f my time now.

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I don’t think it’s far-fetched-just needs to be carefully plotted out, planned and marketed. In the meanwhile the Nav team is still taking fixes and updating things.

This would be a cool feature however, you can just look at the STAR/SID and add it in by typing the waypoints. I feel it wouldnt be worth it since FDS has a lot on their hands already.