SIDs and STARs

Infinite Flight has been making great advances recently, but I think it’s time to take it a step further and officially introduce SIDs and STARs into Infinite Flight.

What are SIDs and STARs?

An SID (Standard Instrument Departure) is a predefined route to access the system of airways in our skies after departing from an airport.

A STAR (Standard Terminal Arrival Route) is the exact opposite of an SID, giving a predefined route out of the airway system down to an airport.

Now obviously you can manually program an SID or STAR in Infinite Flight by using charts at the beginning and end of your flight plan. What I’m asking for is more realistic functionality.

In real life, pilots would access SIDs and STARs through the DEP/ARR menu in their FMC. For example, a 737 pilot may load a company route into their FMC and then load their departure runway and an SID. When this is executed, the SID is automatically added to the route already in the FMC.

How would this be implemented into Infinite Flight?

I believe the answer to this is very simple. Let’s use a STAR at CYYC, IGVEP4.

I’m at my cruising altitude approximately 15 minutes from the top of my descent into Calgary, it’s time to plan my approach into the airport. I go to the map page, search for my planned STAR, which in this case is IGVEP4, just the same as I would search for any other fix or airport. When I search for the STAR, it will return results for that STAR with all possible runways it can be used for. Let’s say I choose IGVEP4.35R (which I believe is the format an FMC would show it in real life, but any real pilots feel free to correct me on that). Once I choose that option, Infinite Flight will automatically add that STAR onto the end of my flight plan.

Couldn’t you just input the flight plan with the SIDS and STARS by typing then it asks you the runways. I think that would be easier personally

And BTW vote for your own topic

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Terminal procedures also get updated, and are not freely availible in foreign countries. Although it would be great, it’d probably be easier to just input each waypoint.

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You could, just like you can type all your fixes and airways right now and it will form the flight plan. I don’t see why you couldn’t input the SIDs/STARs as part of that.

I’ll vote for my own topic as soon as the forum starts co-operating and let’s me delete another vote ;)

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If I’m not mistaken, navigation data is now able to be updated OTA as of the most recent update to Infinite Flight, so I don’t see this being an issue. (I’ve also never had an issue with SimBrief not being able to retrieve SIDs and STARs from foreign countries)

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I always include and fly them, and it’d be nice to have in-app, but I can’t imagine how much the licensing fees would be for this many users when an individual subscription for these services is astronomical relatively-speaking.

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You can get SIDS and STARS if you use Chris_S’s tool for flight plans with simbrief:
http://fpltoif.com

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True, but you have to source the information into IFs nav database from foreign AIPs.

I think the majority of IF players don’t now what SID and STAR is so I think this wont get implemented.
But it still has a chance in expert tho.
And delete one of your votes and vote for your topic! :)

That’s why I explained what they are. Realism includes learning. You can’t have a realistic simulator if you don’t learn about flying.

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At virtualBlue, we require our pilots to fly real world routes with SID/STAR and ILS procedures and have tutorial videos on how to read the charts etc. If the Nav waypoints ever get updated, you may see more of the procedures available and when the VNAV apps are refined/released it’ll be much easier to plan the SID/STAR procedures. However, as alluded to before-there are a LOT of current SID/STAR procedures missing in IF. We’ve had to use hybrids of older/current procedures at some airports and at others we use LAT/LONG as there are NO waypoints available. KJFK for example is missing ROBER which is a point on several arrivals from the north/east. There is a waypoint roughly in the same spot named PIRCE iirc but it’s still not the same.

So I guess my question is-how do you mean “implemented” ?? Do you mean REQUIRE SID/STAR’s to be flown in IF? Because while I’d love to see that, unfortunately IF is still somewhat of a game for some and you’d only likely get this on expert and MAYBE the TS.

Also, to “implement” these would require a few new ATC commands and a database of procedures for each airport.

For example, you’d need these ATC commands:
“DIRECT TO XXXXX” waypoint
“CLIMB VIA THE XXXXX SID”
“DESCEND VIA THE XXXXX STAR, RWYXX TRANSITION”

I certainly hope to see this!

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Removed a vote to add to this. The important part of this feature is being able to see what procedures are active in the sim.

If a pilot clicks on an airport, maybe the information included could list the current SID/STAR in use at the time. If the airport is VFR, you wouldn’t need to include this. But if you have an airport with constant congestion, or anything less than VFR, the procedure would be listed so the pilot would know which approach to use. This would also streamline approaches to the airport, as there would be a set of uniform waypoints that all pilots would be navigating to to enter the airspace.

I love the idea of this feature. I, like most of you, choose to fly the procedures for the airports. It would be nice, however, if these procedures were enforced and mandated at certain times.

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This looks like a good place to ask my question :-) I’ve been studying SIDs and STARS for a while now and obviously you active ATC in the real world for commercial flights. I know a lot of the instructions are to take into account possible comms outage. Anyways many of them like Atlanta say to immediately accelerate to 250KTS (not exceed!) and have top altitudes of of say turboprops of 4000 and jets of 10000 of a SID that it’s waypoints can be as far out as Athens and beyond but still expect planned/filed altitude within 10 mins after departure. So when following a flight plan from Atlanta to Charlotte or Asheville (which fly in the real world multiple times a day in CRJs and 717s) with cruise altitudes of FL180 - FL210 doesn’t leave much time before you start your arrival down range

I’m assuming that ATC departure will clear you sooner to climb? I know depending on airports you have the initial climb and heading from tower and not acquired by radar handed off to departure until reaching 4000 ft or so.

Am I close? My USAF command post job/training was just for familiarity

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Your post illustrates a key hurdle, which is the complexity and variety of clearances and instructions that come with Instrument procedures. You are correct, that a SID could have a top level altitude published, and that ATC can clear you past this. They can also hold you at that altitude if needed for separation from other traffic.

In my experience, the tower controller has a vision and understanding of the airspace and usually gives the pilot an idea of what to expect, such as “Upon departure climb maintain 4000 ft, expect higher altitude 3 minutes after departure.” Again, these are fluid and complex commands that might be tough to implement in IF.

One strategy would be for pilots to fly the departure as published unless instructed otherwise. This would maintain separation as intended, as all pilots would be flying the appropriate procedure within the terminal area. The best we can do, for now, is fly our procedures with vigilant SA to avoid others who, through no fault of their own, could be interfering with the planned route.

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Bruce a lot of times they’ll give you a “climb via”

Dude KLAX is missing a bunch of SID and STARs too:)
For example IRNMN ONE (RNAV) I don’t know why but even simbrief don’t recognize it but almost all inbound trafic from the north will use this STAR tho:(

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I’m sending some up to folks to put in

Infinite Flight FPL will give me cordinates of the waypoints but hard to find😞💦

I always use STAR and SID’s and this would be extremely useful.

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You’ll want to use OLDER STARS found here:

http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/KLAX.pdf

I believe you’ll be looking for the SADDE arrival.
Many of these will be in IF at least until Nav updates roll out

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