should violations and ghosting also apply to ATC?


#42

i wouldn’t want to get myself ghosted only to see how the process goes, but the topics i have seen about ghosting usually seems to be pilots wondering about why they got ghosted, i mean making such an obvious mistake like flying through another aircraft and not knowing why they were ghosted it’s kinda confusing to me so i thought maybe it’s better for the ghosting to not happen in real time but i get what you mean,. since it’s very easy to cheat and jump from grade 1 to grade 3 and have access to the expert server,.

personally i have to learn how to taxi to the gate properly before i get into the expert server lol cause the arrival airport doesn’t show the airport map when making a flight plan so usually after i exit the runway i don’t know where the gates are unless i am going to an airport that i familiar with,.


#43

That’s because people aren’t accountable for their mistake and some even lie not realising controllers take multiple screenshots or record their actions. Most of the topics you see are real life examples of this and that’s why they are simply told to contact the controller as they hold the answers. Controllers do have ghosts reversed if there is no evidence so it’s not set in stone but just realise that we can’t go around ghosting without ourselves being held to account for our actions in doing so and we must be able to justify it.

Also if you don’t know exit the runway, taxi to a crossing point while in contact with ground and just cross to the other side if needed. Also googling the airport will help and looking at charts.


#44

It seems like we are going in circles so I am going to address your original questions.

  1. No ghosting doesnt happen in real life. In real life there are consequences for your actions. You may get written up, fined, fired, license suspended, etc. It varies from entity to entity.

  2. IFATC is not asking for pilots to be perfect, they are simply asking that you behave in a manner that does not impact the experience of the pilot flying next/behind/in front of you.

  3. As mentioned before, every report can be questioned. You have the controllers name and have every right to ask why. Controllers are very helpful when it comes to this and will often explain why they did what they did and how it impacted others. If in the course of explaining it is determined that they made a mistake, they invite a moderator to the PM or message us on ATC slack and we can reverse it. Controllers are human and make mistakes.

  4. ATC is not perfect. Can they follow real world procedures? They try but with the volume and tools at our disposal they do the best they can. An example of this is using all runways. They will use all runways, that make sense to, when the time is right. If there is a 20 minute line backing up on one runway and none inbound to another runway they may spread the load out. They are not trying to purposefully send you across the airport.

  5. Is there a team of investigators? Yes - Moderators, Staff, and ATC supervisors. Controllers’ performance is constantly being evaluated. They may not even know it is happening… Feedback is given daily and addressed as needed.

  6. Should you be scared of expert? No! I will admit my first time I was a little nervous based on what I heard but I simply responded to their commands accordingly. They are in control of their airspace and I put my trust in them to get me where I needed to go. I do take extra caution when taxiing and turning to make sure there are no planes around me that I will interfere with.

  7. ATC are pilots too and are held to the same standard. Most of the time when a controller reports someone they have no clue the grade, or even who it is. They see a situation, warn, screen shot, and report if needed. ATC pilots are included and not above the rules. There are many ATC pilots who can tell you that they were reported.

I hope I covered just about every question, if not more, from your original post. If you have additional questions let me know. I just want to stop going round and round of people saying the same thing without ever really asking questions.

Hope this helped.


#45

Good letter


#46

It feels like you’re arguing for something that you can’t relate to or have any experience with.

As @CyLyric, @PlaneCrazy, @David_Lockwood, and @Chris_S said, you really have to just go on expert.

In that case you ought to spawn in your arrival gate in solo and search the area, get to know the terminal and taxiway shape, then quit the flight and begin on your journey from your departure airport. Also how do you do this in training? Do you just taxi anywhere you like until you find the gate?

Don’t be worried about being ghosted. Even if you do, you’ll see the process of an appeal. There might be a couple pilots here on the IFC with a clean record, but even the best pilots have been ghosted or reported. It’s a learning process.

So basically, don’t create a post complaining about something that really isn’t an issue. The manner in which you presented this topic would feel like a valid argument, but you don’t have any personal experience to back up these claims.


#47

There’s a few issues. First off, IFATC are trained and tested before we’re given the title of IFATC and allowed to access the expert server. When that happens, our access is extremely limited. We may only control Tower and Ground at Class Charlie and smaller airports. We must further prove our ability before being allowed to control Bravo airports, and undergo more training and testing before being allowed to work Approach and Departure. As for pilots, there is zero training or testing requirements to access the expert server, just the requirement to be a grade 3 which means a certain amount of time, XP, landings, and violation to landing ratio. No true indication of actual pilot ability or knowledge, just relative experience. That’s why pilots have no authority over ATC. When it comes to being held to account, we are absolutely held to account when controlling by our supervisors, who reserve the right to caution, demote, or even remove us from IFATC.

As for investigations, they absolutely do take place. If you are ghosted, you have every right to appeal your case to the controller who ghosted you. We will always use fair judgement, and admit if we made a mistake. Also, your side of the story may help us see it in a different light. If we deem it necessary, we can have the ghosting reversed. You can be assured that our final decision will always be fair, as we are required to copy an ATC supervisor in on the conversation, who will often assist in the investigation and final decision.

Don’t get the idea we like ghosting people, we don’t. We have to gather evidence to support our ghost, and that adds a considerable amount to our workload, especially at a busy airport. We want to give you a chance to correct your mistakes, we want to help you learn, and we’ll only ghost if it’s absolutely necessary. If you’re ever unsure of something, maybe not sure why you’re being told to “check tutorials”, just send your controller a message on the forum. We’re always happy to help out and clarify and explain anything you need.

You can’t be ghosted in real life, but you can be called to a meeting with the FAA or equivalent regulatory body, and then you’d be wishing you were just suspended from the expert server for a week.


#48

i don’t have to face the circumstances in order to address them since the issue is out there already i am just addressing it and reviewing it, and it’s actually good to see many good responses here,.


#49

“El presidente, we’re ALL just regular human beings…”
“No, no, no, police commisioner. I-Am a regular human being, You-Are a SPECIAL human being, because you got a gun hanging there on your waist” (real life conversation).

Well put! But I think your argument should go to feature: the NTSB experience! Then I’d propose for another technical feature there later called “Collision Enabled” and would gladly join in as IF-NTSB!

Now, I do think your argument is kinda cool, much more with the replay feature coming up. And yeah I do think its a bit Judge Dreddy-weird and unrealistic kind of thing for ATC to be able to “revoke a pilot’s license” MID-AIR, like cops do to drivers, mid-way. But perhaps for now that’s the only and best way that the IF system could handle, probably? There’s pilots, there’s ATC and there will be…NTSB? Next up… FAA? :D

Though, I do humbly propose that IF should invent something realistic to straighten this prolonged issue. How pilot players felt about ATCs in ES - let’s face it, noob flyers tend to avoid 'em in ES - and IF easily qualifies a lot of new players/ paying customers for ES (like moi last month, before I got downgraded this week for accidental speeding lol).

Maybe, pilots need tests too, to enter ES?

I mean, we all train in Training Server and whatever we learnt there might seep into Expert Server (in no time) in the form of attitude when forum debates starts to run around in circles (Such as right now - a series of several same argument and defenses). Just consider some of the things I’ve seen in TS, which is the TRAINING ground to prep us for ES: pilots not trusting ATC decision and ATCs who name themselves…GOD.

I think ES problems should be weeded out since TS stage, not with talks, but a new system, if anyone have any bright ideas to propose (like pilot written tests or, I’d actually vote for that NTSB thing you got there, though, if you’d move it to feature - it’ll take stress and wasted time off for both pilot and ATC players as NTSB have tools and acts impersonal as ombudsmen/ ombudswomen - also I like the case and sentence timeline reason, more “realistic”).

Peace all :)


#50

“…, just relative experience. That’s why pilots have no authority over ATC…”

You sir, deserves a medal for this logic. That’s so true… wanna have equal say to ATC as in real life? Go through extensive written tests and pilot training scrutinies! If IF would make this for pilots, I would gladly take it (more realistic!) and I would be more confident in flying! Also, expert pilots would not be able to access TS, just like IFATC can’t control in TS!

Now I understand this whole thing, thanks! So for now, as a pilot, easy in and easy out for me it is then (I’ve been demoted due to speed violation, can’t access ES this week, my bad).


#51

I’ve been flying on IF for a good while now! It’s like this with the ATC cause pilots wouldn’t behave on the expert server! Now sometimes ATC can get it wrong but overall the pilots kept treating the expert server like the causal and training server so some form of enforcement had to happen to keep the expert server the “expert” server!


#52

I am sure there have been many many countless times where people have been ghosted over a misconception. It would be investigated then would be lifted if the ATC thinks it should. The point of ghosting applies to you not being professional and experts in this field. Not following directions from ATC can be unproffesional therefore they should not be on Expert Server where people actually want realism. However this is a problem with the way some Air Traffic Controllers handle the situation, some may give warnings others don’t. The point is ATC can be stressful and with people not following directions, it’s the logical thing to do.


#53

Not trying to be mean or condescending, just stating facts. All the average pilot has to do is fly a few long hauls and enter the server when they meet the requirements. Whereas the average IFATC has to first meet those same requirements to enter the server, meet the IFATC requirements, study, pass a written test, possibly fail, study more, pass the written test, train with a trainer for several weeks to pass or fail a practical test, and then when they pass they can finally become an expert server ATC.

That would put us all on more of a level playing field and make the experience for everyone better possibly, so maybe one day in the future. As someone who is an IFATC trainer and went through and help people through the IFATC testing process, that seems on paper to be a major logistical nightmare for Infinite Flight. How major is dependent on how extensive the testing would be, but any form of testing would need some kind of structure behind it to function so that it can meet the same high standard as the IFATC testing process, which runs like a well oiled machine.


#54

Please note that most pilots on Infinite Flight are not professionals in aviation. This does not apply to real world because of that.


#55

Maybe there should be a server that is higher than expert which would be the realism server which you could make a test for. That way not many people would get mad because they can still access ES


#56

I don’t think you’d see many controllers controlling on the lower tier server if their experience would be better on the higher tier one.


#57

I probably learned more from the 1 report that I’ve ever had. As an example, after contacting the ATC, they revealed the decision due to “straight out” departures and crossing with other aircraft. From there on the link was provided and more research done into that subject and how to do it properly. From there on it has improved my own skills on a personal basis and that was from contact afterwards.

In terms of violations it’s probably much more difficult to judge and mistakes on the expert server are very rare due to having the right quals to get onto the ATC. Perhaps go with embracing and learning from the ghosts and reports unless absolutely sure it’s a mistake in which case the ATC will probably apologise and the ghost will wear off eventually. Everyone makes mistakes including ATC and pilots and that’s what makes this a sim as opposed to a real flight.

:-)


#58

There would be half and half. ATCs that don’t meet that requirement for the “realism” server and pilots that do. Expert server would stay a pretty realistic server saying that it will be the same restrictions that is in place today.


#59

ATC usually are kind about mistakes. If you didn’t know what you did wrong they can tell you respectfully. They do not have any intention to make you feel bad for ghosting you. It’s just you have made a mistake. @Helmethead did you remember if they gave you a warning before ghosting you?


#60

Of course not, that’s why I learned my own mistake. There wouldn’t have been a warning as the straight out resulted in a near miss which they couldn’t really have anticipated. There were never any bad feelings, it was positive as I learned from it. And they were very respectful when asking about it, so no harm done as it was my fault for not doing a proper straight out departure. :-)


#61

You’re describing the training server.