In this picture below I am sequencing in Qatari 21 and C-OBRA what is C-OBRAS current position (Right Downwind, Right Base,etc…)
This is a good setup but here is the common misconception with this.
Pattern Instructions:
Pattern instructions have not much to do with the other aircraft that is inbound. Yes you will tell them to enter straight in from that distance OR you can tell them to enter at the base, downwind, etc, of XX Runway ( in your case RWY27)
“Normally” ( I say this for people who know what they are doing) Pilots will enter at an altitude 1500-2500ft AGL (at dictated airport) and enter into the pattern in which you instructed them to do so. I have seen a lot of IF users not correctly use these pattern instructions.
For the case when there is traffic on a final you will hear the ATC report the following ( lets say your southwest 123, and inbound traffic is Alaska 321)
AL321: LA Tower, Alaska 321 Is on the visual for RWY24L
ATC: ALaska 321, Winds 250, 08 knots, Clear to land 24L.
AL321: Clear to land 24L, Alaska 321.
While this traffic is inbound and on a final approach you will often hear this traffic.
ATC: Southwest 123, traffic is on 5 mile final, line up and wait RWY24L.
SW123: Lineup and wait, Southwest 123.
TRUST THE ATC WILL CLEAR YOU FOR TAKEOFF!! DO NOT ASK FOR TAKEOFF AGAIN!!!
Pattern instructions will sound like this:
AL321: LA Tower, Alaska 321, right base RWY24L.
ATC: Alaska 321 winds 250 08 knots, report 5 mile final.
(this lets Alaska321 know not to turn final approach until 5 miles or greater final)
This allows for ATC to separate the traffic and be able to fit the pattern traffic into the traffic coming in from straight in.
I highly recommend listening to the air traffic in your area and figuring out what seems to be working currently. If you can listen to a major International airport versus a regional or local municipal. They all have certain things and instructions.
Also @Aernout made the following fourm post and How To:
Happy flying!!!
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Thank you. Where is C-OBRAS position though. when saying traffic to follow what would I say to Qatari 21?
@Rotate while it may seem like a ‘bad idea to sit there silently’ it’s actually the correct thing to do. Its what you are meant to do. You do not clog the airway with repeated takeoff requests, that only slows the process down.
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What I mean is iam ATC what position is Cobra
Right base. He is actually straight in because he wasn’t in the pattern but to far away to be on final. If you say rt base the other plane will know which plane to follow
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Okay thank you.
But that’s what ‘Line up and WAIT’ means? You remain stationary, throttles on idle, ready for an immediate clearance. Obviously if you’re waiting for 2 minutes and there’s no traffic crossing runways, landing etc on cross runways, then yes, for the purpose of IF you can give the controller a reminder.
I’ve sat idle, in position lined up on 08L, for about 4 minutes waiting for 2 aircraft on final to land on 04R. I sat quietly. The controller knew I was there. I was cleared to line up as there was no other aircraft within 15 minutes of 08L.
Controlling IF, there is nothing more annoying than repeated requests or duplicate messages.
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Again I wasn’t asking anything about the runway. I was asking what position C-BOBRAS was in and @mhhodges76 answered it for me.
@Rotate
Let me clearify,
yes your right you should check in if you receive that message.
Some pilots on IF before they even finish lining up will send another message to request take off… which you shouldn’t do. but yes your right, if you get the warning system, check in and then request. just don’t clog the system.
@rotate firstly, calm down.
Secondly, your direct response to ‘trust the controller, don’t ask for takeoff clearance again’ was ‘it’s a bad idea to sit there silently’. That’s clearly saying don’t follow the instruction to sit at idle and wait until you’re cleared.
In regards to the second article you’ve linked, that appears to have been cleared up as an error. Those violations shouldn’t be happening when your told to wait and to the best of my knowledge, it’s being fixed.
Now that you have clarified yourself in detail after a further 3 posts, I understand what you were initially trying to say.
Regardless of if you agree or not, if you are told to line up and wait, line up and wait. You do not request takeoff clearance for a second time (unless it becomes blatantly obvious that you have somehow been completely forgotten due to the nature of IF and other planes on the taxiway are now being cleared ahead of you). This happens about 1% of the time, so don’t jump the gun.
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Why did the Qatari 21 plane ask for a transition if he’s landing?
I do not know I just responded to it so he would stop asking.