Thanks,good point,you get exactly what I meant,when is busy and you are flying with a321/737 and below mo need backtaxi
I feel your pain! 😩
I was the approach for this airport and I saw some stupid behavior. Some aircraft did require full length! And all they did was takeoff from the intersection which I remember seeing many aircraft only just make it off the ground in time.
If they require more length, it’s up to the pilot to do so. I’ve done a full flap takeoff before and you lift off the ground like a helicopter. The POH doesn’t account for this when it shows required takeoff distance and because of this, the pilots can usually takeoff earlier than expected. If the pilot can hold on the brakes and reach static RPM, they will increase their takeoff performance and decrease their required runway length. Although the controller might think they know the aircraft’s capabilities, they definitely don’t know the pilot’s abilities and because of this, the responsibility is on the pilots to perform a safe takeoff and climb. If the pilot needs more runway, whether required or not, they can go ahead and use more runway. When cleared to enter the runway, they are cleared to enter the runway. Unfortunately, we don’t have the perfect communication system and because of that, ghosting a pilot for using the runway they were cleared to enter is like ghosting the controller for vectoring a training aircraft flying VFR onto final (best thing I could think of but you get the point). It’s not like the pilot started at runway 27 and went to back taxi all the way to the end of runway 9. Worst case scenario: tell the traffic on final to go around. I’m sure you get the point by now but you should think about what the pilot was thinking before ghosting someone. People learn more from their mistakes than from being punished. That’s why the FAA has safety programs for pilots that have accidents or incidents instead of punishments.
Preaching to the choir, the pilot can back taxi if he thinks it’s necessary… the point is, a number of aircraft don’t need 7500’ of runway, but many will back taxi a 737, or smaller aircraft, probably because the 747 ahead of them did it.
Also, Nobody will be ghosted for back taxi. When it’s busy, we’ll tell a smaller aircraft to line up and wait, trying to fit him in a small arrival hole. When he back taxis, it may call for a go around which was unnecessary.
The point being made was know your aircraft, and back taxi only when you need to. I can take off safely in a 737 on runway 02 at WMBT without back taxiing!
MaxSez: I like the responses here! “The PIC is the Decision Maker” a sweet sound voiced by experience & competent IFATC’s. GA to “Intersection Departures”, “Short Pattern Finals” to an available short runway rather than the IFATC chosen active Conga Line when a shorty at Pilots discretion is available, The Pilot know his competency and craft wind component better than most IFATC’s. Back Taxi or full rway? what Controler can eyeball an aircraft weigh and length/V1 requirement. Etc. This is a great topic. The responses should be discussed at the next IFATC meeting and a Chief Pilot Video/Tuutorial for the fledglings. BZ All.
(“Trust your Controller” LOL)
@adrianyujs… MaxSez: “Just GHOST them”. Bad attitude, not the way to think as an IFATC. ATC is a “Service” not a cop shop! Power corrupts!
Thank you Marcello!!
Not just that but pilots please use some half decent initiative. Your plane won’t always need a whole runway to takeoff so attempt intersections if you can. Experiment a little.
Goodness me, is this the safety culture that we should be perpetuating? People advocating for ATC to have control they shouldn’t have over pilots? That very same culture of blindly following the controller almost embedded an A320 in a mountain a few months back.
I lived in Batam for 10 years and never have I seen an aircraft Back Taxi, if there is a reason it’s probably that Qantas A380 that landed there due to bad weather at Singapore
@Danman…Sez. [quote=“Danman, post:20, topic:73572”]
blindly following the controller
MaxSez: “The Pilot in Command is the Decision Maker”. Controllers make mistakes to! Don’t take a Ghost without a challange , Review the AIM cite the relavent Section & Paragraph for the situation. Always include a screen shots of the comm exchange. Always info “Joe”. Post the result, win or loose on the Forum. Win or loose it’s a learning experience for all concerned. Fly or Control like a Pro, don’t let your frustration or ego cloud your mind)
(Note: Don’t Gripe about a Controller Trainee on T1. Your wasting your breath and column inches. Been there done that, a worthless effort)
sorry, i disagree here. Back taxi is also a pilot decisión. If i’m not comfortable with the length of runway u are giving me, i have the right to a back taxi. U don’t know how heavy i am, sorry, i feel there is missing a “request back taxi” commands, until then, if there is a back taxi available, all jets should get it.
My 5 cents, i’m not saying im right.
before I only gave my opinion. If rule is no back taxi when line up and wait message is sent, then i think that should be added to ATC command. Maybe a , line up and wait, no back taxi
Line up and wait means no back taxi.
I am in agreement with many of the comments on here. It is up to the pilot to decide whether he/she needs a full length t/o or is able to accept an intersection. The intersection t/o may be offered by the controller but it is up to the pilot whether he/she accepts it.
ok, just to clarify, I’m talking about planes less than a321 and 757, for all other ok. my point is: If I tell you LUAW or CFTO, it means that I know that the length is enough, I’m not talking HEAVY. Anyone thanks to all for suggestions.
It’s not up to you which is the point being made. You can offer the intersection but you are on no position as a controller to force a pilot to take it. If the pilot wants a back taxi you deal with it.
that is my point. Disobeying an order now is the only way to show the controller I want a back taxi.
Yes I see. It’s a shame there isn’t a request back taxi command as you say.
The other problem I have seen is sometimes people will request to cross which I agree to then instead of crossing the back taxi. I suspect if there was a request back taxi comment it may deal with this too.
@MarcelloM… MaxAsks: For the record: Are you in fact an IFATC tested & certified controller?
This is the point,in that case i have few inbounds,and a cesna,320,737 asking for TO,from the intersection you have 7000+ft runway,so I program the TO in base of inbounds,if i tell you CFTO or LUAW,you have to do otherwise i have problems with inbounds,so if is as you said pilot decides?so in others case also?so why we are controlling?