Unable is used when you are going to fly into a mountain, not when you are flying 120knts flap15 while 20nm from the airport. Retract the flaps and increase speed when you are asked. As you said, “unable” will likely get you ghosted in this situation.
@JQW. MaxSez: BAD Attitude James, Read my Post “Unable” or the FAR relating to the term! Unable is a useful turm with many purposes to include precluding being vectored into a mountain by a Controller who’s ignorant or unfamilure with the terrain within his area of responsibility or has an I’m in command under all curcustances attitude and is all to willing to ghost which will be followed by a wronged PIC’s PM Challange. As a PIC I’ll choose my Approch Speed and profile based On safety of flight first, my stability based on wind and weather ect. I’ll choose to continue my approach by following your guidance or depart the Approch path by requesting a Departure to repositioning rather than fly a missed approach. j will not jeopardize my craft by accepting a conditional command as discribed. A PIC even when committed to an Approch path can allways request a departure (direction) fron the flight path Fly to an alternate if He,s uncomfortable with conditions, human, mechanical or situational. It’s a PIC,s choose. I suggest you discuss the Command “Unable” with Tylor or Joe and consider the conditions before you reach for the threatened ghost switch. Better yet reopen the FAR and learn your trade.
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You are responsible for the safety of your aircraft AND the aircrafts around you. Use some common sense. It’s the same as driving 30miles an hr on a highway where everyone else is doing 65. It’s dangerous practise.
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N@JQW… MaxSez: What? Seems you were discussing the use of “Unable” not the speed of Advance on Approach! What does the car analogy have to do with the issue? The See and be Seen Rule is not psrticularly relivent here.
In “Controlled Airspace” Seperation is the Controllers Responsibility since the PIC does not have a “rear view mirror” normally. Eventually the seperation of types based on there profile will come naturally to ATC with practice. (Personally I’m please the slow Dash is in the inventory! Different strokes for different folks, maybe the use of short runways ect for the light junk or stacking will be considered finally! Only time will tell)
(“You are responsible for your own aircraft” What I say!)
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Yes it’s the controller’s responsibility, but what use is it if no one listens to instruction. The car analogy is very valid. In most countries, it’s just as illegal to drive too slow as it is driving too fast.
Your excuse of dash 8 being slow is not valid at all. It’s like saying you can drive 20miles per hr on a 80mile road just because your car won’t go fast or your eye sight is not good. It then actually becomes illegal.
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I think the point he’s trying to make is each plane has its own flight characteristics and they don’t all move the same yet in RL they are still worked in together the car analogy is a bad one for aircraft. Cessna’s land with 747’s everyday.
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One, I was talking about approach and NOT landing.
Two, you will not find Cessna and 747 use the same runway.
I beg to differ but that’s fine
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@Brandon_Sandstrom… MaxSez: the term “Ghost” used by a Controler will always get my undivided attention in any Post as demonstrated here my friend Bran. Bad JuJu when used in the context of this Topic, Please tell your compadres James, that I’m a pussey cat most of the time but you’ll always get the horn if you try to argue with the Bull from an inferior position! LOL
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Here you go a 172 following a 747 for the same runway. Get the point?
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@JQW… Max Ask’s: James tell me true are you an “Advance Controller” or an Playground ATC wannabe?
James Wang is an ATC Supervisor. An advanced controller.
James is most definitely an Advanced Controller, and a very good one. I believe the point he was trying to make with unable is pretty simple. If you’re 20 miles out at full landing configuration and you’re asked to maintain best forward speed, unable isn’t a reasonable response. You shouldn’t be going that slow that far out. Unwilling isn’t the same as unable.
I didn’t take what he said as a threat. I would do the same in his position. If someone is holding up a traffic line going UNREASONABLY slow with traffic following (no traffic is a totally different situation) I would ghost as well. It’s not unsafe to maintain speed. We don’t have emergencies, so that card can not be played. If anyone listens to the last episode of FlightCast, Ard gets pretty specific about the speeds the Dash will maintain throughout final specifically to keep traffic flowing.
Adv ATC can always improve and incorporating GA traffic into trash hauler patterns is definitely one of those areas.
✌️
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I wish to use the same analogy as road users.
747 is a BMW
Dash 8 is a old VW polo
C172 is a bicycle.
We are comparing 747 to Dash 8, not to the C172. Firstly, you will not find a C172 approach from 12000ft. Just like you will not find a bicycle on a freeway. So let’s not go in to it.
Secondly, for every one of my past posts, I was talking about APPROACH speed, not LANDING speed.
There is a difference!
If you approach with landing speed, in either a 747 or a Dash 8, you are doing it wrong. I know that a Dash 8 will land at least 20knts slower than a 747, but it doesn’t mean it needs to approach at the landing speed. If you are capable of cruising at 240kts (yes compare to 340knts as you would in a 747), you are capable of approaching at 200knts, and safely.
You don’t need to slow to 120knts when you are 20nm away from the airport in a Dash 8, as you don’t need to slow to a 140knts in a 747 at the same distance away from the airport.
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well you won’t see me decending in the Dash at 200 kts sorry. I think your completely missing the point. As for your car refrence. Let’s put it this way your on the freeway you have the right lane for slower traffic and the left lane for faster traffic correct? Same principles apply. Only with aviation we also move vertically. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a faster plane over taking a slower one by either side stepping it or flying above or below it.
Just as in the video above keep the slower aircraft out and under the airspace until the last minute and work them into the pattern. You can’t expect a straight line for approach all the time it just doesn’t work.
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Since people are obsessed with what they think is true for real life instead of how ATC and pilots can work together in IF, attached is the real life data.
Qantas Dash8 400 approach data into YSSY.
Note at 6800ft, the ground speed is 244 and at 5200 the ground speed is 257. You only see significant speed reduction from >200 to final landing speed of ~130knts when the plane is less than 2000ft. At 3200, it’s still 213, so the plane intercepted ILS at >200 and ONLY then started to slow down, not during the approach.
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The following message is directed NOT only at you, but at everyone else who fails to comply with safety of airspace and namely ATC commands.
If you are approaching an airport at landing speed and refuse to comply with the instruction to maintain an appropriate forward speed, you may be subjected to a session ghosting.
This is not a threat, but is intended to serve as reminder to people of the importance of cooperating with ATC to ensure a smooth flying environment for everyone.
Not to be confrontational or anything, what is the definition of appropriate speed? Scrubbing energy on a Dash-8 is pretty easy, but there comes a point where I am risking a destabilized approach if I try to scrub energy too late. It’s not that I want to be in you guy’s hair, it’s just very difficult to judge when I should start slowing down without risking a ghosting. Is there a distance you guys want? Because I am not changing my lift configuration below 1000, I should be fully established and stabilized at 1000 according to SOPs.
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I think people are seriously missing the point of the topic and all the subsequent threads.
The topic and my replies are all about approach speed, not landing speed.
If you are at 1000ft and fully configured to touch down, you won’t be asked to change speed. I am willing to say that if a controller tells to change speed at 1000ft, he/she is in the wrong.
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