Physics of landing count

@Geofly123 's topic “Spoiler’s on Decent” led me back to thinking about IF landing count. The connecting issue: how to slow down fast enough.

Within IF I can think of 3 highest priority situations for the need to slow down:
1)250kt speed limit below 10,000 feet
2)final approach speed (for controlled landing)
3)turn arounds for building landing count

In efficiently building landing count in my available practice time I likely want to both speed up as fast as possible followed by slowing down as fast as possible.

Of course flaps and gear add drag and spoilers add drag.

But somewhere way back I stopped using spoilers for the slow down part. That’s of course because tight turns are more effective at “dirtying” up the drag.

So I’ve come to believe the best aircraft for building landing count are those that can bank fastest into the steepest turns possible without stalling, while achieving the highest possible acceleration up until that turn around point.

The physics part I had to re-think through was: why the slow down in the turn?

Paradoxically a turn in direction itself does not directly change energy, so it doesn’t decrease speed.

But in an aircraft, the added force to change direction doesn’t come for free (as opposed to a ground vehicle).

The only force available to make the turn is lift (that’s why you bank). So lift is now doing double duty: holding up the weight of the plane plus pushing it around the turn.

And the ONLY way of making more lift at a given IAS is to increase your AoA (angle of attack).

But the key to the quick slow down: the higher range of usable AoA adds a big drag penalty compared to the added lift you are coaxing out of the wing.

So a quick aircraft (fast speed plus quick acceleration) with the best ability to roll into the highest drag penalty bank position (and not stall when maxing out the AoA) should be my best aircraft for building landing counts.

In summary I should aim for:
1)fastest race to the turn around point, followed by
2)quickest positioning into highest possible banked AoA

But which aircraft?

In less aerobatic flying, turns of course are the only effective way of managing the slow down when flight spoilers, flaps, and gear are not enough.

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I personally find the Cessna 208 caravan the easiest aircraft to use to build up landings it’s able to turn really quickly and very manoeuvrable Majority of my landings are from that aircraft 👍🏻

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I don’t think I’ve tried the caravan for building count. I’ll have to try it out. But what about getting to the turn around point quickly. Do you think it being slower than a pure jet powered aircraft is made up for by the manoeuvrability?

I’ve kind of settled on the citation.

How about the x-cub?

I find that TBM Daher is the best aircraft for me. As best performance and I can build around 45-50 landing counts pretty easily !!

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I use CRJ200 to get the 20nm journey from Huddersfield to Manchester. I go to 2000ft, to get over the hills, before landing. If you just let your speed go high to around 500 knots, and then full slow to 150 knots by the time you land, you can do 1 landing per 3 minutes. Its a very straight course, with barely any banking required. Just be ready to set AP to 2000ft as soon as you take off, otherwise you will crash into the hills. I’ve used this method to build up landings

I think the TBM is great, fast, good for getting landings, maneuverable.

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I use the TBM.

Very manoeuvrable and easy to rack up landings in a short amount of time.

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I’ve tried that. But maybe not best for early stages of learning due to tail dragger control skill taking more time to get used to?

I have a lot of count in the TBM. It’s one of my favourites. The citation is maybe my current favourite especially for larger airports. But for building time at some smaller fields, I still think of the TBM

Do you mean you are slowing down fast by flying to a higher altitude airport? And then circling around to repeat, trading speed for altitude in getting over the hills?

Do this on casual server. Do full speed, and climb to 2000ft as there are hills that go up to around 1900ft and then right after the hills start dropping down while still at full throttle, until around halfway through final where you should slow down. This was it is as fast and efficient as possible, so you can cycle them fast

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I tried this. I quite like the terrain there. But I went back and saw you said 1 landing per 3 minutes. So you made me realize I hadn’t mentioned how many landings I could pack into a certain amount of time.

I have to go back and try with the tight turns for comparison. But my impression is I could do it faster because the tight turn kills speed very quickly.

What are the actual restrictions for a landing count?
What I’ve heard are:
•30sec in air
•full stop then go

Are those correct? What else rules are there?

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Good question. Maybe someone else knows the exact details. I’ve always found I need the turnaround to get the landing to register (just up and down straight over a big runway doesn’t work).

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Which airport do you use? I find the layout of ZUUU quite good for building landing counts.

Ok I just timed myself.

One try only: a turnaround from the field you mentioned to get one landing count. I used the citation, starting from a cold start, still on the runway.

The full circuit from start of roll to touchdown was just over 1 minute (about 5 seconds over).

So in 3 minutes I might be able to be faster because it’s touch and go with a rolling start speed.

So clearly I can get 3 landings in 3 minutes or more.

I have to say I was sweating it with the tight turn trying to hit that tiny runway in a citation.

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I’ve used a variety of airports. Of course the bigger runways give you more room for error, epecially as your concentration gets a bit fatigued.

But also, I’ve practiced a lot. I’m sure I couldn’t have done this as well earlier in my landing count.

You could have done sth like this, which is just 30secs in air, to my experience

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Yes. I agree, you’re definitely using strategy much better than I’ve been able to come up with.

I’ll give this a try in a bit.

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