MaxProcedure! "WHY; No Intersection Departures Accepted"!

The entire team does an amazing job. While we aren’t perfect they are certainly better than the alternative. Guys there isn’t a rule against private messaging a Controller to get clarification as to why something is done.

That’s my main point here.

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Unfortunately this will be an item that will have to be accepted by the pop in and go pilots that are in a fervours hurry to taxi/take off. I’m sure that for every GA granted an intersection departure during a peek session, there’s 10-15 pm’s bombarding the controllers inbox wondering why a pilot was allowed to cut in line. It’s unfortunate but hopefully the more advanced procedures and tactics used to control airspace will be understood and accepted by the community in the near future. It’s complicated but we’ll get it.

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In my case, i usually don’t allow them when it’s busy. Cause not all, but i tend to get many pilots trying to use this function to take advantage and take off early (even heavies in half runway). I sometimes had even 4 planes at different holding short and i have to remember who was first or i’ll get a second request for take off, so to avoid all this kind of issues, i deny them.

If my procedure is wrong, i have no issues in changing it.

All this said doesn’t apply of course when a GA airplane requests it, i always allow them.

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@GuitartIvo… A Logic and professional approach. I believe your approach is the correct one for a busy “B”. Most GA drivers like me stay away from B’s during hi-tempo ops. We will however use short rways at multi rways bz B’s like 25R at LAX etc. we routinely carefully plan our arrival. (One rub on bzy B’s is the Controller who does not juggle all actives, use holding patterns or direct ground to meter the flow to the threshold). Regards

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If I remember correctly, you were trying to use 3500 feet of runway in a plane way too large for such a procedure.

For the record, I never deny intersection departures in the situation of which @Maxmustang is speaking, except in cases where exit taxiways would be blocked.

I am more than happy to get a C208 out while an A388 shambles around at the head of the line.

But if there’s only on runway exit before the end of the runway and you’re sitting in it with landing aircraft, I need the taxiway clear. Otherwise I’m more than happy to facilitate intersection departures, no special request needed. I know the plane types. A Cirrus doesn’t need to tell me he doesn’t need the full 2 miles of runway at KLAX.

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Yep @Tim_B Like I said I didn’t know what I was doing hahha

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When I was a newby, I was denying them, but as time went on (a few weeks 😂) I realized it was a perfectly acceptable procedure. Now I allow them, but will make sure the intersection departure is cleared in the order in which he called in.

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If this helps me to make the airport more efficient, I’m using it. And in general, I have nothing against it.

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@MarcelloM… MaxSez: We learn something new everyday. Here’s a reference from CFI Notebook.net taken from AIM 4-3-10 (Intersection Departures):

Introduction:
In order to enhance airport capacities, reduce taxiing distances, minimize departure delays, and provide for more efficient movement of air traffic, controllers may initiate intersection takeoffs as well as approve them when the pilot requests
Intersection Takeoffs:
An aircraft is expected to taxi to (but not onto) the end of the assigned runway unless prior approval for an intersection departure is received from ground control
If for ANY reason a pilot prefers to use a different intersection or the full length of the runway or desires to obtain the distance between the intersection and the runway end, THE PILOT IS EXPECTED TO INFORM ATC ACCORDINGLY
Pilots are expected to assess the suitability of an intersection for use at takeoff during their preflight planning
They must consider the resultant length reduction to the published runway length and to the published declared distances from the intersection intended to be used for takeoff
The minimum runway required for takeoff must fall within the reduced runway length and the reduced declared distances before the intersection can be accepted for takeoff
An aircraft is expected to taxi to (but not onto) the end of the assigned runway unless prior approval for an intersection departure is received from ground control
Pilots should state their position when calling tower for takeoff
Pilot: “[Location] Tower, [Callsign], at alpha 2, ready for departure [Runway]”
Example: “Cleveland Tower, Apache Three Seven Two Two Papa, at alpha 2, ready for departure runway two four”
Controllers are required to separate small aircraft (12,500 pounds or less, maximum certificated takeoff weight) departing (same or opposite direction) from an intersection behind a large non-heavy aircraft on the same runway, by ensuring that at least a 3-minute interval exists between the time the preceding large aircraft has taken off and the succeeding small aircraft begins takeoff roll
ATC: “Hold for wake turbulence”
Controllers are required to separate small aircraft that are departing from an intersection on the same runway (same or opposite direction) behind a large nonheavy aircraft (except B757), by ensuring that at least a 3−minute interval exists between the time the preceding large aircraft has taken off and the succeeding small aircraft begins takeoff roll
The 3−minute separation requirement will also be applied to small aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less departing behind a small aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of more than 12,500 pounds
To inform the pilot of the required 3−minute hold, the controller will state, “Hold for wake turbulence”
If after considering wake turbulence hazards, the pilot feels that a lesser time interval is appropriate, the pilot may request a waiver to the 3-minute interval
PILOT: “Request waiver to 3-minute interval”
g. The 3−minute interval is not required when the intersection is 500 feet or less from the departure point of the preceding aircraft and both aircraft are taking off in the same direction
Controllers may permit the small aircraft to alter course after takeoff to avoid the flight path of the preceding departure
h. A 4−minute interval is mandatory for small, large, and heavy aircraft behind a super aircraft
The 3−minute interval is mandatory behind a heavy aircraft in all cases, and for small aircraft behind a B757
NOTE: Controllers will issue the measured distance from the intersection to the runway end rounded “down” to the nearest 50 feet to any pilot who requests and to all military aircraft, unless use of the intersection is covered in appropriate directives. Controllers, however, will not be able to inform pilots of the distance from the intersection to the end of any of the published declared distances.

Comment: Recognize the IF Comm menu need a command change to support this procedure. Under the present conditions an aircraft noseing into an intersection hold line, holding and requesting take off in itself signals intent.

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They shouldn’t be denying intersecting departures. If it happens again PM me the controller info. Intersecting runway usage should be accomedated, and welcomed.

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Also pilot/ ATC comms to request from both sides has been suggested, and added to the ever growing list.

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Allowing GA to depart at the intersect can help heavy traffic in my opinion.

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I like accommodating intersection departures. It keeps me on my toes and thinking constantly, especially like GAs or other smaller aircrafts.

On expert, when i controlled awhile back, i only denied intersection when i receive alot of “newer” pilots. They have no regards for whether intersection departures on a short runway can accommodate their 777 with flaps 5. When one of these grade 4/5 pilots do it, other pilots follow and it is much more of a pet peeve of mine.

They clog up taxiways and inconvenience other pilots. Other pilots become impatient and they start sending duplicate messages while i deal with tower and expediting departures all at the same time at risk of getting kicked from session.

Of course, this isnt the solely the act of pilots, i still need alot more practice and its also down to random luck on what pilots i have.

I gladly provide intersection departures to GA and smaller aircrafts but a 747 doing intersection departures on a short runway is quite a sore eye. Sometimes i simply pick the easy way out by denying it during huge waves of such pilots, just so the majority of others can have some form of convenience, sadly having GA on the losing end of all these.

When pilots put themselves in a position where they do not deserve a ghost but seemingly trying to be ghosted, its quite a dilemma.

Ps. Not sure if this post actually highlights incompetence xD either way, I really try my best when im on frequency ^^

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@Yunkeru… MaxSez: My Topic, I’m obviously pro Intersection Departure (ID) with a caveat! I’m also extemly supportive of @Yunkeru enlightened position. Now the caveat; If it’s a turbine bigger than a 737/320 no ID go period! Any reciprocators in the inventory plus the Turbine Citation should always be acceptable on any runway but especially on short runways at multi-runway field for an ID.

With that let me also second Mr. Yunkeru comment regarding Grade 4/5 Pilots on any Server. Any violation no matter how minor for the 4/5 Group should be Ghosted period, no excuse, except a system failure! If the violation is in uncontrolled airspace the 4/5 violater should be reported by his peers, take no prisoners, friend or foe. For the 4/5’s who resent my finger pointing let me just say “If you can’t hack the pace, get out of the race”. In the trade being technically correct is Know as “Good Airmanship and Common Curtesy”, Get with the Program Pilots!
Just Sayin.

(Remember: AIM 3-2-10: In order to enhance airport capacities, reduce taxiing distances, minimize departure delays, and provide for more efficient movement of air traffic, controllers may initiate intersection Departures/Takeoffs as well as approve them at a pilot requests (or his obvious intention in IF) to initiating an Intersection Departure/Takeoffs).

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Perhaps in the future, new commands for pilots can assist with this.

Sample1
Planes that are suitable for ID

Pilots: xxx ready to taxi, request ID
Atc: taxi to runway xx

Sample2
Planes not suitable for ID based on knowledge of the rwy length

Pilots: xxx ready to taxi, request ID
Atc: taxi to runway xx, unable Id

I guess something like this. So instead of a broadcast, it is individualised to each pilot. Not following instructions and obstructing other pilots is a much more precise situation for ghosting.

Im not issuing a feature request so dont flag this as off topic xD im sure request like this already exists, im just bringing a suitable solution for a problem addressed in a suitable topic =p

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Really good point re: experienced pilots and idiot copycats, this makes a lot of sense to me, tough problem. Having just read this whole thread, it occurs to me that maybe it’s the same problem with the whole “never criticize ifatc constructively in any way, or pay the consequences” mentality. Somebody like @Maxmustang does it and he may have a point, but if you don’t get crazy red-alert defensive, others might follow…

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One of the reasons I like voice communication (eg Vatsim) is that you can negotiate with the controller and explain your situation. I fully understand why IF doesn’t use voice comms though.

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As ATPL, follow instructions or “Squack 7700” Real life!

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