Max Sez: I recognize congested hi-tempo aerodromes when I see one on the big boy server there not unusual., The departure gaggle and restrictive NOTAM at pre-event Zurich got my attention today, my GA was a no go into LSZH Airspace. Operationally, 3 perfectly good green runways in both directions with only two being utilized for departures for the Trash Haulers. Green 16 was wide open for departures with minimal in bounds but went unused. The 2 departure “Q’s” where chock-a-blocked, the delays where unacceptable due to PPPP in my opinion. The NOTAM restricted use of 3 local low class airports (LSMD, LSPH & LSZK) within Zurich “Big” Ring with a Ghost threat. A novel idea, it gives the terminal control nodes open skies and keeps GA’s out of sight and mind.
GA Discrimination remains alive and well! Who’d a thunk it.
I believe the intent of the TFR is to not restrict GA’s or “Trash Haulers” as you’ve coined them from entering the airspace. In times past we’ve seen issues where folks are departing airports from within the TFR requesting ATC service into the FNF airport seeking priority service. What this did caused massive delays and a birds nest within the overlying airspace. You shouldn’t be denied service if you’re flying a GA so long as you leave/enter the TFR boundary. Again, the intention was to restrict those who wish to seek priority service over those been waiting in the ATC vector queue for the last 15 mins or longer.
Welcome back Max! It’s been a while and it’s really good to see you back here. I was a little worried for a while but then I saw you flying on Live. I’d be looking forward to see you around here again a little more again. All the best to you!
Now, I agree, it is difficult for GA in FNF sometimes. I understand the NOTAM though because the airspace is very busy during FNFs and it is difficult for ATC and the pilots in such a cramped area, but yes, especially in areas like Zurich GA is something nice.
Hi Das, good to see ya. My arrival at Zurich was pre-event. Had the NOTAM ascribed an event or not set a 24 hour time block joetoe (good). Not utilizing all green rways was an inside the fence error in my opinion and you know what they say… Gooday My old Friend
Discrimination of GA’s are you kidding me?
Have you ever seen a cessna 172 at EGLL in real life ? No! Beacause it doesn’t make sense as they hold everything up! Just compare a FNF to a busy day at heathrow no one in theyr right mind would fly their cessna into the tight appr path please do not think that we discriminate Ga’s they are more then welcome at most of the airports…
Look for fr24 sometimes, you’ll see GAs at the busiest of busiest airport. They’re also a part of aviation and hence no one can forbid em coming. Approach sucks vectoring them, still he will have to.
Side note: Don’t know you much, however welcome back to the community Max!
Obviously Pencil you failed to do your research before commenting;
Extract Para “H24 of the Heathrow Pilots Guide, “ provided that prior permission and a clearance number is obtained fronm the MD, HAL. Operators of Gen and Biz aviation aircraft mayu only operate in the peak during any operating season if they obtain permission from the airport operator as well as a slot in advance of each movement also from the airport operator. In practise, permission to operate in the peak will be deemed to have been granted under the terms of the Traffic Distribution Rules, if a slot for each movement in the peak is granted. Operators who operate at any time may operate the movement provided that the aircraft departs or arrives as the case may be within 30 minutes or after the time of the slot.”
For experience I don’t remember a class B in the free world that totally restricts GA both recip and turbine. GA Usually request a slot in advance during off peak. Fee’s are outrages at aerodromes that do not have a colocated FBO and expect advanced scheduling in the wee hours, An IMC ticket is required.
Note: See UTube for GA into Class B airports, The JFK GA (172) video’s into this airport lay out local procedure,
I won’t comment on the GA points mentioned, but just a small note about Zurich Airport:
RWY 16 and 14 can’t be used for landing simultaneously as their approach path cross, therefore RWY 14 is used for landings and RWY 16 (together with RWY 28) for departures during normal operations in real life.
Also RWY 16 and RWY 28 cross, which means they can’t be used as independent runways for departures either.
Point taken JB (Swiss). Did not note the rway usage or cross anomalies in my available European Pilots guides or Jepson FLIPS. I’ll stand corrected on this one and rely on your local knowledge. Still believe proper sequencing and holds would economize and allow full usage and better flow control. Am sure Zurich is hi tempo at time considering it importance. We live and learn, thanks & BZ, Regards, Max
No problem, Zurich simply is my home base in Infinite Flight, therefore I am very well aware of the operational procedures.
While I believe ZRH has it’s challenges, especially in Infinite Flight, I agree with you that correct sequencing could have increased efficiency during the FNF.
Nonetheless we have to keep in mind that it is a simulator with trained but (mostly) not real-life ATC, who often simply can’t have a in-depth understanding of the airports they control.
RWY 14 is in no way built for departures, all traffic to 16/14 would have to use TWY E (parallel to RWY16).
As there’s only one taxiway using both for departures and not one for departures and one for landings has no operational benefit, especially as a only-departures runway can handle more departures than a combined system, as line-ups can be already done with traffic in take-off roll opposed to a RWY with aircrafts on short-final.
Old Friend, Things did change on IF in my absence. Appears IFATC has matured as there more circumspect and not as quick on the trigger for one. There providing excellent service on Expert. The Trainer Controllers are still a mixed bag as expected. There are some shite hot operator evident there. On the Expert still would like to see more use of Holdings points for arrivals, required airway routing point to point for the Trash Haulers and EW separation rules followed. At some point hoping Centers are established for Events and hi tempo weekends.Tyler and his staffs hard work and attention to detail is evident on every Sortie I’ve flow on the so called Expert. The flat hatters and novices on the trainer are ezly ignored. Yes my friend thing have changed on IF for the better. It gives me a worm and fuzzy every time I kick the tire and light the fire… Regards Old Friendo
