Lvl3 violation with no propper atc protocol

ATC
1

I have recieved a lvl3 violation: “excessive speed in an airport invoirement.

i was flying a c130j from KWRI on vfr. I was flying around KWRI, did some manouvres and wanted to land on KJFK. after is stopped my manouvres I must admit I might forgot to check my airspeed!

I checked in on KJFK arrivals and immediately I recieved a :’frequenty change approve notification from atc. No I do not want to change frequenty i want to report inbound on KJFK an request a landing. So I check in again and put out my request for landing on which I recieve from atc that KJFK is not accepting inbound traffic and that I need to alter to another airport. Shortley after that notification from atc I get a change course command to 170 on which I respond. In my turn to 170 my screen quits and i get my lvl 3 warning on speed.

so yes, I did fly faster then intended but is it not protocol from atc to notify the pilot to slow down? isn’t it protocol to request this change of speed 3 times and recieve warning if not slowing down you then get that violation?

yes I submitted my appeal but it got denied based on my speed.

Thus my question is:

What really is propper protocol and did this controller handle according to the written protocol?

so here are some of the protocol things i am talking about

Above 250kts IAS (indicated airspeed) below 10,000ft / exceeding max speed warning (VMO/MMO) - does not apply to military aircraft

1B.2 violation reasons.

  • Pilots who do not respond to an instruction after 2-3 attempts**

  • Excessive speed in the airport environment***

  • ***Speed which results in rapid closure with other aircraft, loss of separation, or airspace disruption may be deemed “excessive”. Good judgment must{.red} be used

  • Fighter aircraft must not{.red} exceed 350KIAS when below 10,000ft and under ATC control, however pilots are expected to maintain a reasonable speed in the vicinity of other aircraft or when instructed to slow down by Controllers. Reporting for excessive speed can be issued when a lack of etiquette is shown. Standard speed restrictions for commercial aircraft also apply to military cargo aircraft (i.e. maximum 250 KIAS when below 10,000ft and under ATC control)

yes I agree on airspeed, but really I forgot to check this and lower power therefore i might have acceded 400kts. i know it is high and pilot is responsible to check this! And therefore the question about propper protocol

Thus is it not protocol to warn the pilot? and only give the violation after a given warning?! and not just give out the violation without propper warnings from atc?!

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We are not required to give warnings. Things like excessive speed is usually a “slam dunk” violation (as are other transgressions that may directly interfere with another aircraft) - it is ultimately the pilot’s responsibility to manage their speed.

400kts in controlled airspace is far too fast.

4 Likes
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400 knots is a pretty cut and dry case

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5

well in VFR, it’s the pilot’s responsibility. about speed, approach, controlled working hard to prevent conflict, and high speed, it becomes harder to manage.

Speed which results in rapid closure with other aircraft, loss of separation, or airspace disruption may be deemed “excessive”. Good judgment must{.red} be used
however pilots are expected to maintain a reasonable speed in the vicinity of other aircraft or when instructed to slow down by Controllers

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If no prior warning was given and no traffic conflict or loss of separation occurred, then filing a violation without any communication might be seen as procedurally unfair or at least lacking proper courtesy. if it happens, then there is nothing to say but a “beeppp, beeeppp" sound. Start ringing if separation is beyond 5 nm.

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400kts in controlled airspace is unacceptable, take the violation and learn from it.

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9

I understand your frustration, but not only were you breaking the speed levels for fighters, you were in a C-130! 400kts in a C-130 is insane! Cruise speed at 22,000 ft for the newest models is about 360kts, and that’s at cruise.

I would also caution against trying to land at busy airports with active ATC if you took off from an airport close by or are not making a normal descent/approach. This is because lots of users flock to the hubs of the day and try to make quick flights, taking off from nearby airports and landing quickly, which not only adds a lot of work onto the backs of the IFATC members, but also adds delays to users who have made lengthy trips from other locations, and aren’t just trying to jump in on the action. I’m not saying you were trying to be a nuisance, but taking off from a nearby airport and approaching at 400kts gives an appearance of doing that, and ATC has no way of telling otherwise.

So I’d just take the violation in your stride, look up, and hit the skies again! Many people have lots of violations, it isn’t the end of the world, and in reality they are just learning experiences for everyone!

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11

Please message the Appeals team with further questions.

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