IFATC Knowledge Level handling Special Airports

[KuHenrick]

Hello, I am Henrick from Hong Kong and I am 14. This is my first created topic in the IFC, as I don’t even have TL1.

1 hour ago I was landing at Kai Tak Runway 13 in the Expert Server. All things looked good, except for the ATC instructions.

This is a normal approach chart of Kai Tak. As you can see, planes are required to fly heading 080 when they reach Sha Lo Wan 沙螺灣 near to Chek Lap Kok 赤鱲角. Planes continue to fly to the east until reaching the inner marker and seeing the checker board which is located on Checker Hill 格仔山. Then planes fly towards the VOR and line up with runway 13.

But in this case, the Expert ATC guides me to a long final, not a short one. That means I will crash into hills before reaching the airport. In the photo, you can see the ATC guiding me to the tip of the ILS. (By the way this will not happen if Kai Tak has IGS)

From this photo, I was not told by the ATC to line up with the ILS on time, so I overshot the localiser. I steered the plane back on the localiser, but as you can see, I was too high from the glideslope even though I am way too near to the mountains. You can also see that the airport is behind some mountains, which is the Lion Hill 獅子山. Of course at last, I landed in Kai Tak with a very unusual and weird way.

My question is: IFATCs Are well trained and examined. But do they read approach charts before controlling an airport that requires visual approaches? I always think that IFATCs make my landing procedures easier, but this time the ATC has made a very complicated problem. It brought difficulties to pilots. There are other airports like Paro VQPR that pilots need visual guidance to the airport. If this controller is the Expert controller who is controlling Paro during the ‘worlds hardest approaches’ Event, what will happen? The answer is obvious: planes will keep on crashing into transparent mountains or executing missed approaches.
This is a very serious ATC problem in Infinite Flight, and I am looking forward to seeing appropriate replies from the IFC.
By the way, the controller is DennisP controlling VHHH/VHXX approach on frequency 119.10 on 13th of April.

If anyone thinks that this topic is in the wrong category or it contains inconstructive information, feel free to send me a private message, so that I could improve this.

[Chris_S]

IFATC does look at charts and reference them for approaches when able. The problem is that the volume alone in Infinite Flight is very unrealistic to the real world so sometimes real world procedures are not able to be followed.

I applaud you on a very detailed post and this is the type of posts we like to see from new members so please keep up the good work.

With that being said, I will share this with other IFATC members so they are aware of the challenges of that airport. One day we will get our terrain map back which will significantly help out our approach controllers.

Thanks again!

[KevinMc88]

Maybe in this case request a visual appraoch to VHXX and then fly your own heading following the chart? I would think that the controller would understand your intensions, and since in this case there was no tower controller at VHXX it shouldn’t have posed a huge problem. But who knows as VHXX didn’t have a huge int’l airport next to it during real world operation lol

edit: yeah maybe not, thats too much conflicting traffic

@KuHenrick I must say, I am impressed that you have knowledge of using charts as a new user on IFC. well done!

[Matthew_Chan]

I’ll explain why the first chart isn’t used that you showed. It’s because it has conflict with traffic taking off of runway 07R as the sid brings them to around Ma Wan and turn south. When they’re at Ma Wan they’re at 3500 feet before the turn when arrivals for Kai tak are all at the same height.

As Chris said, IFATC look at charts for reference but it is hard for IFATC to work around the no terrain map part. IFATC is moving around the world every single day and we aren’t stationed at one airport so we might not be professionals although we strive for the best service.

Thanks for the constructive feedback today. See you in the skies

PS: I’m from Hong Kong

[Hezz]

Adding to that is the lack of a number of fixes in IF which makes the the approach controller unable to use the real world charts for reference
I hope when IF continues to improve, we can handle these kinds of approach much easier
P.S. I am also from Hong Kong

[Tobias_Keiler_Mobil]

Hi KuHenrick,

thank you for this - I’m not overemphasizing by saying this - GREAT AND DETAILED, high-quality post. My answer is a mixture of all previous speakers but nearest I am to Chris:

You are flying on a level the game is simply not yet ready for because of it’s structure. I guess you and the ATC did best work and no-one can speak of a real mistake here. A simulation can always just be maximum 0.9999999% copy of the reality, nothing more. Even is IF is damn near to this number, there always will be issues which can’t be depicted directly.

Nevertheless, as Chris said, this issue indeed can be solved one day within an update.

Nuff said.

Once again: I take my hat off to you. You are a real paragon to me and other sim pilots.

[Dennis_preuss]

I just missread the charts and thought that the 80 degree intercept goes to the cone oh the ILS :)

[Maxmustang]

@KuHenrick… For All; MaxSez: Exceptional and concise critique of the “Incidant” at an infamous closed aerodrome. All excuses and CYA aside it’s not the platforms shortcomings it’s the lack of training and preparedness on the part of the men in the loop.

@KuHenrick… Hard to believe your 14. The technical expertise noted in your critique show a depth of knowledge far exceeding the norm. Fess up, who are you really or who provided the professional guidance required to articulate the challenging situation presented to you to solve?

[con]

How is it a lack of training? Us IFATC discuss issue such as the appr issue he is talking about above in the post. There is always a reason why appr is doing something the way there doing it. I can tell you that everyday someone will ask a great questions and get excellent feedback from other IFATC. @Maxmustang

[JoshFly8]

A good alternative route that’s possible is to come up from the south up to the second airspace ring at 2000, then make an 80 degree turn to the east down to 1000 to sight Lion Hill for the visual. It’s not too difficult and is well out of the way of VHHH departures if they turn soon enough.

[GHamsz]

Since it’s difficult if not impossible to control departures at VHHH, I use a variant of this approach for Kai Tak…

Keeps you away from the terrain south of VHHH. and VHHH departures. Also heads you toward the hill with the checkerboard.

BTW, visual approach only.

Basically, what Josh said! 😂

[GHamsz]

One more thing… The approach the OP referenced was the real world approach for Kai Tak, but if you remember, Kai Tak was replaced by VHHH as Hong Kong’s airport. That approach in the OP’s chart didn’t have to avoid VHHH, since it wasn’t there!

Here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia…

Kai Tak Airport (IATA: HKG, ICAO: VHHH) was the international airport of Hong Kong from 1925 until 1998. It was officially known as Hong Kong International Airport from 1954 to 6 July 1998, when it was closed and replaced by the new Hong Kong International Airport at Chek Lap Kok, 30 kilometres (19 mi) to the west.

We frequently adjust approaches as needed to accommodate IF’s unique needs.

[THE-OP]

The approach the OP referenced

I didn’t reference anything @GHamsz lol

[THE-OP]

What’s the fun in my username then if I can’t do that without someone thinking today is my first day on a forum… 😢

[Tobias_Keiler_Mobil]

My short tag for VHHH simply is “Kowloon”. This prevents misunderstandings

[KuHenrick]

No, VHHH is on Lantau island, VHXX is in Kowloon city :)

[Hezz]

Technically it isn’t on, isn’t it?