Exit runway and cross

#1

Today I was Ground ATC on KLAX on Expert.
The Tower ATC, instructed landed pilots that landed to ‘exit runway 25L, cross runway 25R and contact Ground’.

A large number of pilots however, exited their runway and then contact me, Ground ATC. They then request taxi to parking, before they had crossed the parallel runway. And before I knew it the were crossing 25R, and I nearly ghosted these guys for crossing a very busy departure runway without my permission.

Fortunately one pilot contact me here, and asked for clarification. Great! 👌🏼
The pilots argument was “Tower told me to cross after exit, so after I contact Ground I can cross without permission. What did I do wrong?”

For those who did not contact me, and received ‘you were not allowed to enter the runway’ or ‘please follow instructions’, read this:

Don’t ever cross a runway without permission of the ATC you are on.
When you are on Ground ATC crossing a busy runway without permission, you risk ghosting, no matter what Tower has told you.

When tower tells you to ‘exit and cross’ you stay in Tower frequency!

Here is tutorial info again:

One note here from me, where I may have caused confusion as Ground ATC:
There were two or three pilots, which had landed and stayed on Tower, and had stopped between the runways. I sent them On Guard messages, and I should not have done that. That causes confusion, as it’s very likely these pilots were on Tower frequency, holding short 25R and waiting for a cross instruction from Tower. I should not have sent this pilots Guard messages, as they were under Tower control.

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CaptainPiazza’s ATC Tracking Thread [CLOSED] @ N/A
#2

And this was on Expert server? Wow looks like even tougher restrictions need to be added. Again

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#3

Tougher restrictions won’t help. It’s easier if they just learn or don’t fly on the sever. Perhaps basic tips were included on the splash screen while the app loads into live. Many games utilise this space for tips/suggestions,how to’s.

In my opinion just having a screenshot is wasted space

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#4

With only 4 hours of sleep today, I need a clarification about your situation. It sound like pilots were holding short of 25R to contact the ground then crossed 25R which you didn’t give them permission to do so.

You just wanted them to just cross 25R once they have landed on 25L then contact the ground. Is that right?

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#5

Yes, the landed pilot should follow Tower’s instructions:

—> exit, cross, contact Ground.
or - depending on the instruction from Tower
—> exit, hold short, wait for the cross instruction, cross, contact Ground

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#6

VMaxSez: “Who’s on First” “I Don’t Knows on Second” etc… Let’s “Kiss” this “Double entendre” ATC communication confusion Right Now! For IF if it’s in the air or on the Arrival/Departure Rway it belongs to the Tower. If it’s Taxing to the threshold or has exited the active it belong to Ground. Appears we have a failure to coordinate between independent entities with defined responsibilities. Unless define and published for all concerned this hiccup will recur repeatedly. Objects in motion tend to remain in motion based on the last communication received! What say you Members?
G’day

(Note: Hold Short Lines are the defining factor! Remove Towers movement off the Active Command from the menu. Follow the Interpretable AIM unless it does not fit the Platform)

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#7

The risk this occurs is only on AirPorts where Ground and Tower controllers are not the same person on an airport with parallel runways such as KLAX. How often does this happen? I do not yet see a reason for a drastic change in procedures.

Someone on IFFG suggested to let all runway related traffic to be handled by Tower, including runway crossings. Would that be a response to your points Max?

Otherwise I’m not clear what you mean - batteries of my MaxSez decoder are a bit low at the moment ☺️

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#8

@azeeuwnl …MaxSez: : Clarification: Tower owns the Operation Area which includes all marked runway surfaces. Ground owns all movement areas; taxiways (which include cross runway taxiways which have Hold Short (stop wait for Clearance) Lines plus the Appron, Parking Spots, Slots ect. Thus in the situation described control of Rway Crossing belongs to Ground. That’s the way I see it and I’m sticking to it. The ATC Comm Cmds should be modified by removing All Taxiway clearance authority.for Tower. All “Ground” movement should be Controlled by Ground to avoid confusion as evidence by this Topic. (When a positive intra ATC voice coordination link between control entities is established a reconsideration could be considered. ) KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid). HOLD SHORT LINES ARE THE KEY!

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#9

I’ve heard tower controllers give exit and cross on live RWA fields. Are they skirting the FAA, or do they file (If even possible) for special circumstances?

At the risk of getting yelled at for going astray, I like perusing intellectual White Rabbits.

[Oddly, Tower at Logan just instructed landing traffic to stay with them until Ramp, so maybe volume accommodations since it’s late? I don’t know. But every landing plane has been given taxi instructions, including runway crossings to the ramp.]

[Okay, last edit, sorry. I thought volume had died off at Logan so moved west, to KLAX. Tower is handling all runway crossings, then handing to ground.]

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#10

I wasn’t involved in this situation mentioned on the 1st post, but what if this was the case :

I land on a runway, and tower told me to turn RIGHT and contact ground, when I actually flying heavy and the gate for heavies was supposed to be on the LEFT side of the runway. So should I :

A. prior to exiting runway, contact ground and ask for taxi to parking, and then on the next runway crossing stop on hold short line ask permission to ground ATC to cross runway ?

B. prior to exiting runway, contact ground and ask for taxi to parking, and then on the next runway crossing stop on hold short line, change frequency (or ask permission to change freq) to tower and then ask permission to cross runway, then contact ground again when I’m clear after crossing?

I had situation like that and I use option A, but ground then told me to “check tutorial on using ATC command”, but my personal thought if I use B option, I will then cluttered both frequency.

Anyone can explain please?

#11

Never. Ever.

Contact ground when past the hold short line at the earliest, no exceptions.

You should do what Tower tells you [not every airport is everyone’s home airport, those that know always want to park at the right gate but forget that 99 that follow have no idea which that is, so just let it slide off, as you do at every other airport for which you don’t know every procedure].

If told to exit and cross: Exit and Cross
If told to exit and/or hold short: Exit and hold short

The exit command tells you when to contact ground in both cases. It is always when off the runway. If given a cross, it is when past the runway you were asked to cross. If not, then when past the hold short line of the runway you were on.

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#12

Exit as instructed, contact ground and request for parking, look and follow taxiway passing the runway to the other side, hold short and ask for permission to cross. That’s what I did

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#13

history has taught us that this will not solve the problem. This issue has been talked about for years now and ATC are generally good people. So the pilots take advantage. Maybe ATC should control airports with a stick in their hands now. A ghosting should be given to the deserving.

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#14

Yeah but I got that “Check tutorial” things from ground ATC for doing that :)

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#15

That’s what I wrote there Tim, by exiting the runway I meant when I have passed the hold short line.

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#16

Idk about you but I think prior to exiting runway = still on the runway = before hold short line.

Likke @Tim_B said, 99% of people controlling an airport wouldn’t know what airlines park where, where GA is etc. Even though you may know where they go you should ALWAYS follow atc instructions, unless it will result in a possible crash etc.

If tower says exit left and contact ground, you do so. If tower says exit left, hold short of runway XX you do so and STAY on their frequency. If they say exit and cross, it will be followed by a ‘and contact ground.’ This Means ONLY contact ground when completely past the Hold Short line

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#17

Option A.
First you do what Tower tells you: exit-cross-contact Ground, stuff like that. After that, it’s up to you to taxi to parking to any suitable spot on the platform. And if this means crossing runways, then do so - ask the Ground controller to cross.

One tip though: sometimes as Ground controller I struggle to understand the intentions of a pilot who is asking to cross a runway near the start or end of the runway. “Where does this guy want to go”…

So when you want to cross runways to find a good parking spot, I would suggest to ask for runway crossing somewhat closer to the middle of the runway.

Hope this helps 🙂

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#18

You’re right, I’ve should write “after exiting runway”, English is not my mother language, I’m sorry for that 😁😁.

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#19

Thanks for the advise, it’s just that if I end up park a 747 on a 737 spot I would’ve being ghosted…

or, can’t I?

#20

If only I was there I could of done the right thing. Unfortunately I am restricted due to my little brother thinking he can do anything he wants on my iPad getting me so many violations. Anyways just a tip to new pilots joining the expert server no matter what always get clarification from atc before you do something. No matter how quiet or busy it is just make sure you keep the expert server safe from any incident like these. Atc is the key to your flying. Also try practicing or looking up tutorial in the section requiring atc. Good day