Enough Is Enough

Couldn’t agree more, criticism given is either met with excuses or anger and punishment even by community members

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IFATC would never remove someone based on their nationality. It would cause serious consequences.

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Amen ✌️

I joined the IFC in early 2017. Loved it for the longest time. However, things change and depreciate over time. More and more, I began to realise that the IFC and IF had some big issues. It felt like the place became much more toxic, unforgiving and unfriendly. And I 100% agree that it’s clear IF devs have trouble taking any bit of criticism. I’m not afraid to say it. You guys do (unfortunately!) No matter how composed / polite the critic is in relating their concerns. The rebuttals from IF goes after the users name or grammar. It’s apart of the reason that made me slowly drift away from IF as a whole unfortunately:(

Here’s to a reformed attitude and better times ahead!

EDIT: And to add to the above. I have been a loyal IF customer. Spending literally hundreds on subs over the years. But neither the team nor the content excites me anymore. As of now, I’m not renewing my subscription in a few days. Things need to change with the way IF is run and the way in which their deving / community outreach is handled. No one should be mistreated by staff of all people. Not when the business relies on loyal customers to bring in revenue.

While I’ve raised my concerns privately in the past, I haven’t said anything publicly. There is or at least was a very real fear of a topic just being instantly shut down unlisted and brushed a side was always looming. I’m delighted that everyone is sharing their thoughts now. Makes me proud actually!

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Sticking to the topic, my thoughts:

When I joined IFC in 2016, what I saw was a vibrant community ready to assist each other. Fast forward 3 and a half years later, the spirit of togetherness in the community is gone.

The feedback system has been decimated(as we’ve seen in 20.2) with sycophants trying to come up with all sorts of excuses to mask up the fact that such actions are what destroy communities and businesses. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve known many TL4s for a long time, watched others like Seb and Adam Callow rise through the ranks, which is well deserved for them.

Okay, where do we start. When someone who works for a service provider provides shanty(for lack of a better word) feedback about an important issue, yet considering the customer is paying a lot of money to access the service just beats the realm of logic. As someone who has gone through this in this forum and in real life, and for many out there, would it be justified to subscribe to a service which trashed your feedback? See, as much as Infinite Flight may seem as a monopoly, it takes a formidable competitor to amp its product at a reasonable price and groundbreaking features to completely diminish the progress Infinite Flight has made over the years, and the thing is, this will be the undoing of the strained relationship between the customers and developers. My intention is not to be a prophet of doom, but just like mega companies failed due to arrogance and lack of consideration to the customer, I see the same happening if such behaviour persists.

I’ve been a longtime user of Infinite Flight, and to say that this sim has unleashed my inner avgeek would be an understatement. I appreciate the work that the developers put in, but really, there should be room for constructive feedback and criticism.

Might it be that the massive drops in longtime users would be related to this? Maybe it is due to the fact that users no longer feel welcome and that the active users are new users who are still in the ‘honeymoon’ phase of joining IFC?

Serious questions to ponder. I do have faith that Infinite Flight will prosper, but that can only be done if you take customer feedback seriously, no matter how ridiculous it looks.

Fix your house IFLLC.

Regards,

Concerned customer

I do know that this comment will be received with mixed reactions, but there’s no hiding from the truth, I’m not the only one who feels this way.

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I agree with all that’s written above my post. And I think below too.

I honestly believe that it’s not completely the regular/mods/staff’s fault.

Let me explain.

In the past, the IFC was a small forum for aviation enthusiasts to talk about the simulator, and have discussions about aviation in the real world.
People’s comments were mature, kind and it honestly looked/sounded like they really thought it through before posting.
The community was a place to get kind feedback, as well as help if you had an issue with the game.
People would come and help to make sure you had a nice experience!
When I joined back in January of 2018, I had a warm welcome to a nice community of avgeeks. There were a few hundred of active posters, and the moderators had time to be part of the community.
Here is an example of the First update thread of 2018:

The thread was full of kind, excited people that thanked the devs for their hard work.

Fast Forward to 2020

Here is the thread for 20.1, the first update of the year.
There are 10 times more replies, many of them are speculation, and community members are being quite agressive, whether it be against devs, mods, or other community members.

This makes the mods work very hard monitoring, which means they have more work (as the community members doubled in amount), therefore they have to close the “fun” threads to concentrate. When they closed those threads, people gave angry feedback (not always in the kindest way) and people were sad to lose such a fun series of threads.

Now they are making their way back in the community!

The Livery design thread is coming back, as well as the airline guessing game, and other monthly surprises.

This is to show that the staff and mods care, and they want to make the community a nice place to be for everyone!

You have to understand that IF went from a small little game to a large simulator. This means that the amount of people that needs to be monitored has increased in huge amounts, and that they have much more work.

Think of it this way:

The IFC is a street. There are 100 people in the street and 5 moderators. Would you go on and fight someone else/break something?
Now imagine there are 10,000+ people in the street, all bustling around and pretty much the same amount of mods.
Lots of people take this opportunity to misbehave on the forum, which is frustrating for everyone who is trying to make this a nice place.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not excusing some of the immature comments on IF social media, those are indeed unacceptable.

I am just saying that with 39,600 users, Mods have a lot of work, and sometimes it gets overwhelming and frustrating when people comment on engine placement.

People always say “make the community better” or “it’s not what it used to be.”

I’m the community, You’re the community, We’re all the community.

Let’s work together to make this forum a better place.

With small acts of kindness, kind feedback and help, we can bring it back to a nice, loving community.

Thank you.

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It is, of course, awful when people make prejudice comments. Certain people might make rude comments. They do not belong on IFC. However, IFC and especially IFATC, as a whole, are not prejudice or discriminatory. Believe me, there would be serious consequences. I would highly advise you not to throw such accusations at IFATC.

The difference between the 18.1 and the 20.1 thread is preposterous.

As you said, in the 20.1 thread, most of the replies were negative thoughts and rarely I saw constructive feedback.

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However stressful a job can be, as someone who has held many leadership positions irl, there is a way that issues should be handled. Emotions should seldom play a part when replying to feedback. At the end of the day, the consumer wants to be treated with dignity and going against this, gives competitors a big chance, which can end up catastrophically for IF.


At the same time, as much as we are the community, there’s a certain decorum that those in positions of power should conduct themselves, otherwise, this just breeds anarchy and kills the community.

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To put it pretty clearly, expectations have grown way quicker than our ability to add things.

For each leap in advancements made for IF, people expect more. Adding new things takes a long, long time compared for the time it takes for expectations to be normalised to a higher level.

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Dear everyone,

I please request you to read everything before posting what’s on your mind. Even though those paragraphs are huge, it is worth it. You will understand the situation better and you might even change your thoughts after reading them. Its just useless if you type down your thoughts or concerns even without knowing others opinion about the topic.

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Normally I don’t weigh in on topics much anymore but I’ll add my thoughts to this.

I’ve been around this community for 3.5 years. When I first joined back in 2016, I had no clue what the mojo if you will, was on this forum. Luckily, I had regulars and even just normal forum members that were nice and quick to show you what is good and what’s not.

As time had gone on I thought why not get more involved. I founded a VA (AAVA) and from there got into IFATC in 2018. Shortly thereafter I became an IFVARB admin, and in the distant future, a trainer, and an IFATC supervisor.

In my time at AAVA, I met great people, and now have awesome friends from the original AAVA like @mkwiecek @Tajay @Bobby @ShadowOutlaw just to name a few.

At the IFVARB, I was working with some of the more known and “regular” individuals of the forum. And when promoted to admin, I got to know everyone in the organization even more.

In IFATC, I met even more people and at that time I became what I would consider a well known person of the community.

Back then everyone was nice, helpful, staff were engaged and were what seemed to be nice to all. I look back now specifically on the years 2019 into 2020.

That’s when my love for IF started to decease. Many of those in IFATC were becoming toxic as they moved on up in the system. They thought that they are always right and what they do as a controller is what everyone should do period. They would feel that it was right to bash someone for something rather than taking a friendlier approach. And that’s all I tried to do as a supervisor. I tried to be as helpful as possible, with a nice approach, to get a point across. However there are some who became annoying and unenjoyable to work with, and I am not for that. And this isn’t only happening on the trainer and supervisor level. There are specialists who think they know all, and bash newer peeps for mistakes. I mean come on people we are human for Christ’s sake. Mistakes happen. Also, news flash radar controllers, just because you become radar certified doesn’t mean you can go around telling other people what to do. Once again, this is jusy another example of how things have gotten worse and worse over the years in this community. Nothing against Tyler and Josh’s awesome organization. They have created something awesome, and I don’t want to downplay that, however what I said did need to become known.

Now let’s talk about the community. I’ve seen the community go from a nice place to a not so nice place. No offense to anyone and the staff, however things are just not what they were. I don’t want to downplay the fact that this community allows people from all over the world to come together and I think that’s great, but something needs to happen here.

There are regulars who think they are forum mods. This one angers me the most. Regulars back in 2017 and 2018 were respected because they volunteered to help out as much as possible. And they took stuff to PM because they were smart about it. They never were disrespectful, and they helped out the forum mods, but didn’t overdo it.

Now you have regulars who literally copy and paste what mods have said, they are disrespectful, they think they are always right, and think that someday they will actually become a mod. If you want to become a mod, being a regular who is disrespectful to people is not the way. Get off the forum if you think that’s how you do it. That has become a normality these days and it just isn’t it. You can’t have these people who are supposed to be role models in the position they are in.

Then yes, staff replies amongst those on the marketing team. I feel @ran has done a good job addressing this above, so I won’t really add fuel to the fire other than adding that I wholeheartedly agree that is a big issue that really needs to stop. Back when I joined, staff were respectful to all and sarcasm didn’t really have much of a place when it came to replying to customers. Now you have staff replies that come off more than sarcastic to some and that’s why this is an issue in the first place. You don’t risk coming off as someone that you aren’t when communicating with customers. You always have to kiss up and make them feel welcomed no matter what goes on. You also can never tell who will take something the wrong way. I see sarcasm easily heck I’m pretty sarcastic myself, however some people don’t understand that and that’s what the issue is.

Those are just my thoughts about the forum as time has progressed. As I’ve said I’ve been here for what seems like forever. I can provide a crap ton of links and pictures proving what I’ve said above if you’d like. I’ve got a lot of stuff saved. I am disappointed things have gotten to this point, and hope that someday this forum will return to what the forum was like in 2017, aka the golden forum age.

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@hari.shreyas , Hari bro it’s completely true but when people see such long paragraphs and comments and considering that there are over 50 , people will ultimately start ignoring the entire thing bro.

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I didn’t know IFC was in such a bad shape, although I’ve seen changes and stricter rules. I respect the OP’s view on things.

I’m not very active on social media like Insta and FB. (You should try it)

I feel bad for people feeling/being disrespected and hope things will get better. It’s not much, but I will do my best for people to feel welcome here.

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Amen brother ! Yup yup yup !

Very good topic. Thanks for addressing these things

Can we give @philippe and @Laura some time to sort things out. I bet they will look into this issue seriously and would solve it as it is the whole community who wants to know. Lets give them a chance to improve themselves and make Infinite Flight Community a better place to live in. As I say everyone deserves a second chance.

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If I may, I’m not sure if this has been said already, but I feel like it would be beneficial to have a way to anonymously provide feedback to the staff team. While I do agree that the staff team may act a little quickly or too strictly, on paper, they’re just doing what they have do. I’m sure that they have a whole bunch of protocols that we as the public do not see, while we may not particularly like it, the staff are so passionate and would never do anything to intentionally rile up or stir up problems. They’re humans as well, and are navigating this world one minute at a time, just like us. There is a line between moderation and micromanagement, and sometimes it can get a little fuzzy. Mistakes do get made and that’s okay. Accepting calm constructive criticism is the first step towards changing anything.

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I am really glad that this civil discussion could occur but at this point I think that the community has said what they have needed to say and it is getting a bit redundant

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It’s about time someone spoke up 👏

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