Close call

I had a close call with another pilot who did a short flight to KJFK today… I’m very certain he was watching his device but just did not care to follow protocol… we had a near mid air collision and I’m curious who gets put at fault for it

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1000ft vertical separation, 3NM horizontal or something like that… So really if anything it was your fault for descending down if you broke separation from my point of view just saying.

Could be 5 NM correct me if i am wrong:)

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You have to at the minimum of 1000ft and 3nm for correct separation.

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I was curious as I was close to destination I had to start decent and as it shows he came from behind myself and kept course and getting closer and closer

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Well you Started descending so it’s your fault.

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Scratch what I said above. Post this here:

Proper separation is 1000 feet vertically and 5 NM horizontally.

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Separation minima are listed here:

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Separation_Standards

You were up in RVSM airspace so it’s 1000’ vertically (above FL290 becomes RVSM) but as you were on the same track, it’s the longitudinal separation you’d be looking for. So, for the longitudinal separation, going into JFK-presuming we’re using current RW standards, then these standards would apply:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap8_section_3.html

In addition, I’ve seen 10, 5 and 3 minutes used as enroute separation and I’ve got some chart images from the CAA on this that may help:

The document for the above images is linked here:

http://www.caa.co.za/Standards%20and%20Procedures%20Manuals/Separation%20Methods%20and%20Minima.pdf

On final approach, it’s 2.5nm minimum separation, that’s the lowest allowed I believe.

Hope the above helps you out-as for “fault” if you descended via the procedure and he didn’t, then I’ll give you the pass here.

At my VA, when we’re flying together, so that we can keep fairly close spacing, we fly at speeds throughout the departure, arrival and approach so that we wind up at about 90 seconds apart on final-with each succeeding aircraft crossing the final approach fix as the preceding aircraft is rolling out as is illustrated below-we wind up all along the ILS path crossing each waypoint along the ILS plate in turn-slowing to approach speed at the FAF and using info gleaned from listening to LiveATC for each airport.

The first pic below is the lateral/vertical portion of the ILS 27L chart for KATL.

In this second image, the first aircraft is crossing GRMPI at 170kt-which he will maintain until the FAF at DEPOT and the second aircraft is crossing SEJAY at 190kt and will be slowing to maintain 170kt until DEPOT.

In the second image, the first aircraft is crossing DEPOT (the final approach fix) and will be dropping gear, flaps and slowing to Vapp while the second aircraft is one waypoint back on the ILS, still at 170kt until DEPOT, where he’ll then slow to Vapp and configure fully for landing. It’s a great system and works like a charm every time.

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MaxAsks; Track Problem?

  • Magnetic track 000 to, and including, 089° – odd thousands of feet (FL70, 90, 110 etc.)
  • Magnetic track 090 to, and including, 179° – odd thousands plus 500 ft (FL75, 95, 115 etc.)
  • Magnetic track 180 to, and including, 269° – even thousands of feet (FL80, 100, 120 etc.)
  • Magnetic track 270 to, and including, 359° – even thousands plus 500 ft (FL85, 105)

This is a common IF misconception. These separation standards only apply under control of a radar controller. For UNICOM and Tower operations, we use VFR separation rules just like we use VFR commands.

These are:

1nm lateral separation
500 feet vertical separation


Safe travels!

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Thanks for the info @Will_A!

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Good stuff Will thanks for that man. I wasn’t totally aware of that (tho I should’ve been) as I normally fly solely by the IFR rules in IF since all commercial stuff is required to be IFR.

In addition, I found a better screenshot from a KLAS approach that shows the whole “maintain 170kt to FAF” concept used so often in RW approach vectoring usually from LOC intercept to the final approach fix then slow to Vapp/approach speed-it allows the preceding Aircraft to be crossing the threshold as the in trail aircraft crosses the FAF.

Edit to this post-I was digging back and found this pic-here. It’s KBOS ILS 27 is in use with 4 aircraft lined up for landing. I’ve annotated it to show speeds for each aircraft and the approximate waypoint locations and put the chart in first to give you a perspective.

Generally after a plane gets the final turn to intercept, approach will then say “jetBlue 22 you’re X miles from KLANE, cross KLANE at/above 4000’ cleared ILS runway 27 approach, maintain 170kt until RIPIT”

As you’ll see in the pic, there’s one A/C just at KLANE, another just about at LONER, both doing 170kt, one crossing RIPIT-slowing to final approach speed and one inside of OQDEK at final approach speed about to touch down.

Edit 2:
Here’s the current FR24 picture at BOS-using 27 coincidentally-one just about at OQDEK and one at RIPIT-slowing with a few more on final (FR24 waypoints are fairly accurate but not 100% accurate with their positioning)

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