ATC commands

ATC
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I’ve few questions with being an ATC controller. I’m grade 2 at present. And only fly in training server.

  1. last night when I was controlling both ground and tower at KLAX. An aircraft Swiss 77(something) was requesting permission to taxi to a closed runway. (i.e. Opposite side of an active runway) when I denied he tuned out of my ground frequency and still went there. Later he contacted me again i.e. tower to takeoff I sent him message please follow instructions. He took off from that runway forcefully colliding with other plane on that runway. later for 15 min after his departure, he clogged the frequency with useless messages like going around and all that. What can be done with such pilots. I don’t have any right to ghost either. But at least if we can kick him off that frequency for that point of time.

  2. when controlling tower pilots stay on frequency even after departure for long time making the flight strips extensively lengthy. Even after sending frequency change approved. They stay there. Again need for the option to remove them from frequency.

  3. departing planes frequently request for transition even though they are not crossing the towered air space.

  4. last one. Is there any safe distance that I can give a immediate takeoff clearance when other air aircraft is on final. I mean suppose when aircraft on final is at least 3nm out or something like that.

Now few questions from being pilots perspective.

  1. when en-route to my destination I’ve started my descent to initial 11000 feet. When there was no ATC Active. The approach came up. When I was 20000 feet still descending. I tuned to approach. I requested approach he said me to expect vectors. Now should I stop my descent or continue my descent to 11000 feet.? Same while taxing I informed unicom. Then mid way ground came up. I tuned into that frequency. Should I stop on the taxiway and request taxi again.?

  2. step descent. I generally descent to 11000 feet from cruise at 320knot. Then reduce my speed to 240 knot at level flight. Then continue my descent to pattern altitude. i.e. 3000feet AGL. Now ATC is asking me continually to descent to 5000. How am I supposed to inform ATC that I’m too fast to go Bellow 10000. I’ve to first slow down which will take time. Then ATC says please follow instructions.

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ATC Perspective:

Just give them the transition. It’s TS1. :)

You can swipe on their aircraft info on the board and by swiping it will remove them (until they contact you again)

Personally, 3nm is a bit to close for comfort for me… But I’ve done it (tell the incoming aircraft to remain slowest possible and tell the aircraft to immediately takeoff)

Really nothing you can do since it’s TS1

Pilots Perspective:

You can continue unless Ground asks your intentions. With Approach, just continue your descent and wait for his new instructions

Once again, TS1. They should see that you are going to fast (pilot error not slowing down while descending)… But if it was on expert or on my freq we might put you into a holding pattern for you to slow and descend.

If you have any questions… Feel free to hit my PM box. It’s always open

Yours Truly,
Jack

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Thanks for the help. :) But wish if there could be something I could do with those pilots intentionally clogging the frequency. Because if I don’t reply to their requests I get kicked out of the control. :(

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You can do that without getting kicked!! :)

Click on the aircrafts command tab

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Click off of that aircraft

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The notification disappears

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But…you should know that doesn’t satisfy the reply to the command, so he would still get kicked.

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Remember that distance is not from the threshold, but from the tower. If it says 3 nm at LAX, he’s probably more like 1 nm from touchdown. Generally, checking their AGL altitude and speed is a better indicator of how much time you have. And, that time depends on what is departing. Don’t expect a 388 to be able to make an immediate takeoff in the same time it would take an E175 to do the same. What’s on the ground is a big factor.

Continue descent unless he gives you an altitude higher than that. But Approach’s airspace ends at 50 nm from the field and FL180, so within that distance you shouldn’t be asked to climb above FL200 for any reason.

Nope.

Because it doesn’t mean you have to descend at the same speed all the way down.

When someone calls me 50 miles out at FL220, they’re getting 5000, because there’s no point in me waiting for them to get to a step then telling them to descend again, they’re already past the point where they should be making that final descent. It is possible to slow down as you descend, or, if you want to pause and lose speed for a second and lose speed at 11k, then do that, then continue down.

But an approach controller with 50 people on the frequency doesn’t have time to step descend everyone who is close enough to already need to be down at close to intercept level (bearing in mind that every second that passes, you’re only getting closer and closer).

I’ve had people contact me 40 miles away at FL340. Well, I’m not gonna step descend them all the way down from there. They’re gonna get 5k and vectors to circle around to the back of the line until they’re at a reasonable altitude. If they pause at FL110 to slow a bit, so be it, but I’m not waiting until they’re at FL110 and then telling them 5k. They should bleed speed during descent or if they don’t level off for a moment and then keep descending. Either way, there’s no reason you need to tell approach your current speed is above 250. They know.

[Remember also, that Approach can see how much time you have to get to a certain point. If someone has 5 minutes to bleed 20k of altitude, giving them 11k only encourages them to keep going 349 KIAS, which is not what approach wants. Unfortunately, there’s no command which says “you’re not gonna make it,” so generally I have to substitute that with speed commands or holds if they’re one of those people that climb at 8000 FPM but descend at 500 FPM. I’m not gonna have people doing what they do on Unicom which is take all the way to the cone to figure out that they don’t have anymore room to descend and then making random 360s in the way of other inbound traffic. The 5k is a way to say “if you expect to be vectored toward the cone any time soon, get down.” I’m not saying you are one of those people, just that it’s why you’ll get a 5k, and that your current speed has nothing to do with your ability to lose speed throughout your descent.]

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I do that all the time when that aircraft doesn’t need a command and I never get kicked.

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But those commands require a response. There are a few that don’t require a response, but most do, and clicking on them doesn’t satisfy the response.

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Well, I guess, what’s happening, is you’re still responding to others on the frequency. But if that plane were the only one, you’d get kicked.

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I start my descent at about 100nm to 150nm depending on cruise altitude. And my climb rate and descent rate depends on aircraft pitch attitude. My climb is around 2500ft/min and descent around 2000ft/min. And I don’t slow down on descent because I fly the plane manually generally and very less on auto pilot. Use auto pilot only on cruise. And at high altitude sometimes the wind gets around 50-70knots. And in manual flights at slower speeds it gets very hard to control the aircraft. That’s why I descend to 11000 before slowing down where wind is a bit calm. But I will practice slowing down on descent.

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Will try it out if I get any one like that again. Hopefully I don’t. :)

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I did that once when there was cesna on final. It was about at 1000 ft AGL. I thought that cesna is pretty slow on approach so I gave immediate takeoff clearance. But then the cesna announced going around. I thought the plane will be in the air before cesna touches down. looks I need to research a lot before taking the tower at busy airport like KLAX and EGLL

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Yeah…some planes on final get jumpy. If they wanna go around, let them, but waiting for a Cessna to putter the last 5 miles at 80 knots while the line grows is not ideal. He probably would have been fine. If he wanted, there are only 1000s of airports better suited for Cessna patterns than LAX.

You probably had time in that situation, but the guys on final sometimes get scared that you don’t see them or something. But at places like KSAN, where you don’t have much time between inbounds, you can’t not send someone out if there’s someone on final because no one would ever be able to leave.

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I’ve 1 more questions. Most of the time at busy airport there are all 4 ATC active. So who’s should I contact after take off if I just want to stay in pattern. Departure or approach. Or just stay in tower frequency. Further what can we do if we have no flight plan was holding short for pattern work and tower cleats you for takeoff and denies pattern work. What to do then. I’ve no flight plan. Where should we go…?

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After taking off you contact who tower tells you to contact. Sometimes it may be approach, sometimes it may be departure, etc. Never switch unless told to. If you get a generic “frequency change approved” they just want you off their frequency. Chances are you can tune out since most likely nobody else is available.

If you are denied pattern work, take off and depart straight out and get away from traffic. From there you can do some 360s or something to figure out where to go with the amount of fuel you have onboard. Pay attention to the ATIS when spawning as it will 95% of the time tell you if they are accepting pattern work. The other 5% is when they had to deny it because of a clump of 30 just announced inbound.

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And if departure and approach sends me on gaurd warning. And tower also wants me in his frequency and all 4 ATC are different persons. Actually I’ll be soon lvl 3 in 1 week. And don’t want to be ghosted for this reason on expert server. As it has happened to me in EGLL…

Further if denied pattern can I just fly straight out to about 30nm. Turn around, announce inbound and land at the same airport.?

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On the expert server ATC work together behind the scenes so things like this never happen. If you were ever to be on guarded in that fashion on the expert server (or training server if you can find them), you should PM one of the controllers you were in contact with.

No you cannot. If you are denied pattern work just fly straight out like instructed and find another airport nearby to do some pattern work.

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