Another Complaint about Expert Server Standards

[Oli]

before you read further, this isn’t a topic grouching about “realism”. this topic is purely about showing respect to other pilots

Hi all,

I made a topic a few weeks/months back about the appalling state of the expert server. This isn’t a new topic of discussion, and we know that the team is looking into improving the expert server through community discussion and surveys.

The problem isn’t, contrary to popular belief, realism. You cannot feasibly expect every single user (most who have never controlled an aircraft in the real world) to adhere to realistic procedure every single time they use the game. Games are supposed to be fun, after all.

The problem is respect, or, lack thereof on the expert server under uncontrolled environments. So often, normal users are challenged by disrespectful, impatient, and mess-creating users who believe their actions don’t matter. I would accept this on the casual server, but on the expert server? In the last week alone, I’ve flown maybe 5 times? On three of those occasions, I have encountered pilots with no patience, and no respect for other users who are doing the right thing. Let’s go through them, one by one.

I don’t condone outing, so usernames won’t be provided. The pilots in question here know who they are.

Scenario 1 - Departure from WSSS

Sichuan Airlines A350-900, performing a rejected takeoff before V1 at Singapore Airport. Normal procedure, slowing down before exiting the runway. Unfortunately, the China Southern A380-800 was in a hurry, and decided to not only begin his takeoff roll 5 seconds after the A350, but decided that the best thing to do in this situation was to plough into the aircraft ahead. Expert server, everyone.

Scenario 2: Approach to YSSY

QLK A220-300 at the end of a long delivery flight. Traffic has been using 34L/34R all day, winds are 360 @ 20KTS. Unfortunately, the Cathay A350 has decided that he’s too impatient to change his flight plan, and decides to continue his approach onto 16R after multiple traffic advisories, a 20KT tailwind, and multiple other aircraft departing directly into his approach profile. Ended up forcing a dangerous, low-fuel go-around from the A220.

Scenario 3 - Disrespect from a Grade 5 user at LFPG

Traffic departing from 27L at LFPG, winds 240 @ 8KTS. Halfway through the takeoff roll, grade 5 user “L” (777-200ER) lines up for departure on 09R, without any respect or care for the aircraft speeding towards them at 250 km/h. Photo below details the loss of separation, and how close the two aircraft got. Like - seriously?

From these three examples, and the many more that aren’t even mentioned here, is it clear to see that there is a serious respect problem on the Expert Server.

I don’t care if you fly a Xiamen Air B38M from Johannesburg to Sao Paulo. I don’t care if you do a vertical takeoff in a fully-loaded A380. This game is “infinite” flight - and users should feel free to do whatever they want, fly wherever, without worrying about realism.

However, for the users who do care (maybe a bit too much ), it’s an issue. An issue with no clear resolution in sight. Potentially, there needs to be a user report button, with a report/appeals team set up for ES complaints - not to dissimilar to the current appeals setup for ATC complaints.

I don’t know what the answer is here, hence the post. If this doesn’t mean anything else to you, take it as a PSA to be respectful of other users online, to treat other pilots with dignity and patience, and to understand that not everyone is going to continue putting up with it if you behave like this.

TLDR - Respect your fellow users!!!

[sfahyaviation]

I agree with all of this. I was hounded by “regulars” on an older post concerning this behavior and was basically told to just “get over it”. Guess their Grade 5 status went to their head…but yes the “expert” server is full of know it all behavior and embarrassment.

[Oli]

@sfahyaviation

Guess their Grade 5 status went to their head…but yes the “expert” server is full of know it all behavior and embarrassment.

This. It’s such a spectrum between users who are just trying to enjoy the game normally, vs. players like this. Grade 5 is not an automatic “do what you want” card, and it’s so sad to see it treated that way.

I don’t care about “realism”. I care about respecting right-of-ways, other users in the airspace, and the overall server friendliness. The foundation of this community is civil respect for other sim-enjoyers - unfortunately this is reflected less and less on the game.

[Mike.Tango]

In the last 2 weeks I saw 4 incidents like these out of my 7 flight. A solution must be found…
Also I think some of these situation also caused by lack of ATIS in uncontrolled airports. Maybe a feature like this will provide at least some solution to these problems:

Automated ATIS (all servers)

Currently in IF we have ATIS, but it is unable to use for good reason. Back when it was used, a controller would manually enter the information (kinda defeats the automatic terminal information system bit…), and would have to re-write it all in for corrections. Wasn’t a great system. I suggest we have an automated system implemented, that follows this format: ATIS format Almost all of this information can be pulled from the METARs, except the approach and runways in use, and the NOTAMS/remar…

[Oli]

I agree, but at uncontrolled airports, there’s absolutely no mandate for users currently to act in a respectful manner. Unfortunately, ATIS would struggle to fix that - would be a great feature, but without a mandate and enforcement of disrespectful behaviour, it would be futile for this issue.

ES almost feels like a Mad Max movie sometimes

Until we see a better system of enforcing respectful flying, I’ll try update this thread with anything I encounter, and will encourage others to do the same

[813WhiskeyNovember]

I agree with most of this, but remember, grade 5 is just a measure of flight time and landings. They could have done most of it on CS and recently moved to ES.

[Spinachflower]

Yes, I have experienced most of these incidents described in recent times as well, probably not in that high frequency than others.

To me, the most annoying thing is clearly that pilots don‘t bother to check real-life ATIS information or a quick lookup at flightradar24 to see which runway is used in an uncontrolled airport.

Most probably assume just because it is green on the minimap, it can be freely used without taking into consideration other pilots.

So, it would be great if there was a solution for this at least. What comes to my mind is that there could be a warning system in place, similarly to overspeeding, when pilots use the wrong runway for final approach, and if not changing their flight plan, getting a level 1 violation.

Same could be applied for scenario 1 you described.

[N1451U]

I was taxiing to the gate in my BA 789 at EGLL after a long trip from Haneda. As I was taxiing, I watched a BA A388 divebomb 27R, landing nose first, then bouncing a few times and disappearing. Expert server with ATC.

The loss of life must have been horrific.

[delta12611]

If there going to keep the ES as is, then they should atleast create an even higher server.

[J1ngJ1ngs]

I agree with all the points mentioned, I think a report option could be helpful and would likely reduce situations like this.

[Marwin]

I’d like to address the previous messages and respond to them.

Number of multiplayer servers

In my opinion, the number of multiplayer servers is adequate. For those who simply want to fly low-level over their home airport or hometown without any real-world risk, the Casual Server is the perfect choice. If they’re looking to practice and improve their flying skills, the Training Server is the ideal place. And for those seeking the challenge of realistic flight simulation, the Expert Server offers the appropriate environment.

Every flight simulator pilot has a responsibility to use the servers for their intended purpose, just as they have the choice and the responsibility to learn and practice every aspect of flying, including flight planning and preparation, execution, and debriefing. Infinite Flight offers comprehensive information to support this learning process, and there are also numerous YouTube videos that provide useful advice and guidance. Infinite Flight can achieve high realism with determination, effort, and patience.

The actual problem with the Expert Server

I believe the primary issue lies elsewhere. Once a user gains access to the Expert Server, they find themselves in an environment characterized as a server equipped with professional IFATC controllers and stringent realism enforcement. However, there is a persistent lack of continuous controller availability and consistent enforcement of realism.

In principle, it’s possible to fly uncontrolled on the Expert Server without facing sanctions for inappropriate behavior. Flight simulator pilots who, either temporarily or permanently, fail to demonstrate the necessary professionalism or realism can exploit these „uncontrolled“ gaps to maintain their grade and potentially make the flying experience challenging for other pilots.

It’s simply impractical to have a human ATC controller available at all times and in every location, from every international airport and local airfield to every higher-level airspace.

Technical solution

An enhanced technical implementation could therefore be a possible solution. As a first step, ATIS should be available at every airport. If a pilot fails to adhere to the information provided, such as using an incorrect runway for departure or landing without proper clearance, an automatic sanction (Violation 1) could be issued after a prior warning.

It would also be worthwhile to investigate other forms of inappropriate behavior that could be automatically detected and penalized, especially those not currently subject to automated penalties, such as excessively high taxi or flight speeds.

I may not be a programmer, but I can imagine that it would be a significant challenge for the development team to consistently and accurately detect such behavior and handle it appropriately. The system would ultimately need to differentiate between an actual violation and a situation where, for instance, the ATIS information is not applicable due to specific circumstances.

The additional development and maintenance effort should also be considered. It might necessitate a higher price for using the simulation, which could deter users and, consequently, not be in the developers’ best interest.

Reporting option

In the worst-case scenario, the Infinite Flight development team might need to allocate extra resources to manage the surge in reports. At the same time, many users would be busy gathering and submitting evidence of alleged violations. This approach should be avoided because it could significantly reduce the enjoyment of the simulation and undermine the primary goal of Infinite Flight.

In my opinion, a reporting option exclusively for pilots would be more effective if every incident ultimately leads to a valuable lesson for everyone involved, rather than escalating into anger, resentment, or a desire for revenge.

In the real world, a flight safety-related incident is addressed transparently and constructively by everyone involved, with the aim of approaching and resolving the problem objectively and with a willingness to critically reflect on one’s own actions.

In Infinite Flight, pilots and controllers involved in an incident could engage in a video call or chat with a knowledgeable moderator on Discord. This platform would facilitate a discussion where they could share their respective perspectives and present evidence from their flight logs. The moderator, from a professional standpoint, would then assess the situation and provide explanations. This collaborative approach would enable everyone involved to gain valuable insights, potentially leading to the reconsideration or withdrawal of any violations.

Implementing such a system would require the establishment of the necessary technical infrastructure, the commitment of those involved to contribute constructively, and the presence of knowledgeable moderators.

In conclusion, a reporting option should be paired with a Lessons Learned process. This combination ensures that reports are objectively assessed, while also preventing them from being submitted out of spite, personal dislike, or a bruised ego.

Finally, an Expert Server should be reserved for experts, or, more precisely, it should be a server for pilots who are willing and able to maintain a high standard of realism.

If pilots with a casual attitude can fly on the Expert Server without facing consequences for their unprofessional or unrealistic behavior, it is precisely those pilots who value the Expert Server for its high level of professionalism and realism who will eventually lose interest in it.

A technical enhancement of the Expert Server could help address this issue.

[Bryce_Wilkerson]

To be fair, uncontrolled airport’s is fair game for how one conducts operations in and out. I get people being not respecting others in your post but an aircraft choosing to land/depart a different runway than what most are using is up to them just as it is in real world scenarios.

[Oli]

No of course, obviously uncontrolled airports are fair game for pilots conducting operations. Choosing an unfavourable runway, for example, I don’t care.

Choosing the opposite runway to which other pilots are already using, and disrupting other users - that I do care about.

[Windy_Aviation]

Yeah, I’ve faced this too, and honestly, I think there could be a better way to deal with it.

Maybe they could add something like Reddit karma to our profiles. People could upvote or downvote others based on their behaviour in the Expert Server. The better you behave, the more positive karma you get, while consistently poor behaviour could push your karma into the negatives. If someone’s karma gets seriously negative, they could eventually lose access to the ES.

It would give people more of an incentive to maintain good behaviour and standards in the server.

[LR118]

So you’d loose access to ES for what exactly… not having correct etiquette, that shouldn’t be punishable as long as ATC/ATIS command otherwise. That said ES turns into Mario kart when ATC is not present, people pushing in, nosediving to go ahead or like you say departing from an inconvenient runway. Perhaps an onscreen warning when approaching a red marked runway?

[Oli]

@LR118

ES turns into Mario kart when ATC is not present

Unfortunately, this is the case .

@LR118

So you’d loose access to ES for what exactly… not having correct etiquette

Essentially, if you’re being a nuisance to other pilots, then yes. What I’m trying to hint at is that if you’re not getting in the way of anyone else, then do whatever you want - it is “Infinite” flight after all. But if you’re crashing into other people, taxiing through other pilots, and/or other disrespectful actions - it’s not okay. Save that for the casual server.

I do like the idea of some form of “karma” system, however, I feel like this could be too easily abused by trolls looking to pick on someone they don’t like. Potentially a user-based report system, whereby user reports would be reviewed by a dedicated team, and users found to be in violation of the ES guidelines could receive a suspension. Similar to the Geoguessr moderation system - if anyone is familiar with that.

[Windy_Aviation]

Yep, I get the concern that unrestricted karma could easily be abused, so there’d definitely need to be some limits.

For example, there could be a cap on how many karma votes you can give, with higher grades getting a bigger allowance, kinda like how Feature Upvotes work on the forum. There should also be strict requirements to even be eligible to vote, so random users can’t just join ES and start messing with someone’s karma.

I also think this would give Grades 4 and 5 an actual purpose beyond just having the tag on ur profile section. If higher grades come with more responsibility and influence, people would actually have something to work toward instead of just flaunting the grade.

And most of the issues aren’t just small etiquette mistakes. People straight up create a nuisance, don’t announce their intentions, interfere with others, etc. A reputation system could make people think twice before doing that repeatedly.

For negative karma, the voter could be required to briefly explain what happened. That way, they would think twice before violating that feature. The reviewing team could then look at the situation and take suitable action if necessary. So it wouldn’t be some dumb “negative karma = instant ban” system — extremely negative karma could simply trigger a review.

That way, karma is more of a reputation indicator, while the actual punishment still stays with the moderation team.

[aviationgio]

I agree 100%! Yesterday during the world tour event whilst waiting for departure in Zurich there was a very long line and there was a CL350 just hiding inside of other aircraft to eventually skip the entire line and sadly the ATC did not notice cuz of how busy it was, no blame there.

I think aircraft should be able to report other pilots as well, so that the IF staff could review after the report being made. This could help minimise all these disrespectful people who even dare to do it on controlled airports too!

It’s such a shame this is happening on an “expert” server. Back in 2016 when I first started IF such things rarely happened however that seems to be a common occurrence nowadays.

[jamie_Spanjaard]

Two planes taking off at the same time in an expert server. Please report this. Thank you!

[Oli]

That’s nuts for expert server - incidents like that really should not be happening.

Thanks for sharing, I strongly encourage others to do the same and share any poor moments they’ve encountered on expert.