An Important Conversation

First off, this is not feedback on the 20.2 beta. This is a humble critique of the general direction I see IF going.

When I started IF years ago, the main thing that blew me away was the perfection of their aircraft. Yes, they didn’t all have things like interactive cockpits or opening doors but they looked absolutely incredible (not counting very early ones). This seemed liked IF’s bread and butter until about a year ago. The release of the A350 with a cartoonishly sized cockpit was truly a shock to me. After all, this was the most highly requested/most anticipated aircraft in IF history. The fact that it doesn’t seem like a priority to fix was just as surprising. I’d hoped this was a one off error but having seen the new 777, it’s undeniable that it’s exterior (particularly it’s nose area and liveries) is a step in the wrong direction. Yes, the 2013 77W didn’t have opening doors or a working cockpit. But it somehow looked more like a real 77W than the one we have now (see ANZ image below). Yes it’s a beta, but it sounds like we won’t see major changes before release. If someone could point to a livery issue in the 2013 77W as severe as any of the ones posted below, please let me know.

It’s not a given that IF’s aircraft will improve over time. I see us moving in the direction of more features but less attention to detail. In other words, there are plenty of flight sims out there with tons of features (trees, ground vehicles, buildings, etc) but they look awful. Sure those things are nice, but it’s not worth sacrificing how your aircraft look for them.

If the 787 is ever reworked, consider utilizing the existing model instead of starting from scratch. I don’t think whoever’s creating them these days is as good as the team from 2016.

The move towards more features but less attention to detail concerns me considerably. This is just my opinion but I think it’s an important conversation for the community to have. Thanks for your time.

Examples for context:
(Not beta feedback)

IF 2020
IRL
IF 2013


image image

And the most severe (to me at least):

I’d be very interested to hear other people’s opinions on all this. Perhaps others are willing to trade how the aircraft look for more features. Either way, I think I speak for most of the community when I say- we’re willing to wait to get high quality aircraft. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. ✈️

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While I do agree with most of your points, especially the livery one, let’s also consider the developmental constraints that limit some of these critiques.

If you are expecting aircraft to be a copy-paste version of their real life counterparts, then I think simulators aren’t your cup of tea. After all, that is the definition of simulation: to mimic real life as closely as possible. We absolutely cannot expect the developers to model, with 100% precision, the real life models because our world is such a complex system. Computers are no where matched when it comes to our world.

I am not a developer, but I can advocate for increased awareness about developmental constraints, so let’s also remember to be grateful for what we have and the numerous things that have been done right.

I do not want to argue, as I have encountered numerous such topics since 20.1’s launch in June. These are simply my thoughts and opinions. If you’d like to discuss further, then feel free to PM me! 🙂

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Our 3d artists use hundreds of photos from many angles in order to carefully build each aircraft but the perspective distortion on those photo can lead to errors since we often do not know what type of camera/lens was used by the photographer.
Also, the camera setup in Infinite Flight can lead to more perspective distortion, especially if you compare it to real world pic (our camera setup will most likely not match the camera setup of those pics)
You can read more about this here

This is not to say that we don’t have errors in our aircraft and liveries, we surely do, as every other sim out there, but I think that overall our team is doing a pretty decent job given the various constraints we are working with (time, quality, etc…).
Our audience want perfectly modeled aircraft with all the liveries, perfect physics, great performance on mobile devices for cheap, and as fast as possible… we do our best to find the sweet spot between all those constraints to satisfy the majority of pilots, but mistakes are inevitable.

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Dw u guys are doing a very good job, people are just too picky and don’t want to understanding.

If it means anything, I was having trouble figuring out which was the real world aircraft and which one was not in most of your pictures of the B777s. I’d love for someone, one with photo editing skills, to try to replicate the effects of a camera lens to get proper comparisons between what is seen in IF vs IRL, regarding the A350.

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Same. I think they did a great job with the 777 for the most part.

The A350…I’m not so sure. That difference is so big I can’t really just chalk it up to camera/lens compression, because the other proportions are so similar even down the centerline where the distortion would be.

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From Philippe’s link, I’m not so sure that it’s not the camera.

image

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Honestly unless you are like some aeronautical engineer or really picky you don’t even notice the differences. The aircraft look pretty perfect and spectacular to me🤷🏻‍♂️

Note: the error on the 77L’s house livery has been fixed, took it for a spin around Everett earlier today. Misha has stated the United livery was from an earlier beta build and has been fixed, although I’m not sure about the Saudi & ANZ liveries.

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Were you with the one that its name or something was boeing 777-200LR? If yes, I could have seen you, I was in a united 77W or 3 and parked next to you, but dont know if it was you

Huh? I was ALT-F4 in the LR’s house livery sooo idk

Then no. Oooooopppssss

It probably is somewhat the camera’s problem. If it was all the camera, that would be a very wide angle lens, and it would also be a very interesting lens because it has seemingly distorted the cockpit windows only and no other part of the aircraft. In addition, the side view of the A350 looks proportional and it not oddly stretched in the center hinting at a lens that is 45 mm equivalent or wider. A 45 mm lens puts up close to zero barrel distortion. In addition, it is probably possible to get an A350’s cockpit windows to appear that wide, but it would require something well below a 27mm equivalent, and anything below a 36mm equivalent will introduce a decent curve into the image. This can be remedied with a lens profile correction, but that would thus correct the cockpit windows for the most part as well. Seeing as the rest of the A350’s proportions are in check, I don’t think it’s all the camera.

@ViperSlam posted an A350 moonshot topic a while back. The largest conventional lens is a 600 mm or 960 mm equivalent. Moonshots in IF are taken from 1 or 2 nautical miles away. A 960 mm equivalent is hardly enough to shoot that distance (maybe with a 1.4 or 2x teleconverter).

By laws of lens compression, this would mean that the cockpit windows on the A350 above should be shown as way smaller as that first image shown by OP. However, even though it’s a different angle, it’s obvious that they’re way bigger. The Delta shot is showing the left side of the plane, and proportionally the left cockpit window still lands closer horizontally across the image to Door 1L, which shouldn’t be the case with an angle offset unless the windows on the IF model are just way too wide.

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Agreed that quality is a big part of what Infinite Flight does. However I think Philippe has a point when there needs to be a balance of constraints against demands.

I do agree that I want Infinite Flight to be the best possible. I also realize the developers are human, prone to the occasional mistake, and that Infinite Flight still blows the rest of the competition (cough cough RFS) out of the water on graphics and detail. You can’t argue that on the whole recent aircraft in Infinite Flight look pretty spot on for an aircraft made in-house on a mobile sim!

Just to point out something, in the ANZ photos the new 77W looks stubby, but in the Saudia photos the 77W looks more pointed. Just to emphasize it’s all about perspective :)

be nice to infinite fligjt they work so hard

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I think the A350 looks absolutely fine, the 777s have a few minor issiuse but the devs are human too

The livery issues are mostly not persective related, but rather problems with relative proportions or alignment with the door. Do they bother me? No. The thing that bothers me more is the removal of the old AC livery on the 777s.

Adding to the point about perspective, artists can only correct for perspective if there is some reference to base the correction on. Many plane pictures are taken on departure/approach with no usable reference at all.

BTW the boeing 77L livery is fixed now. I’m confused why the united is off though because it’s fine on the 738

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I’d love to show you this with my camera but right now I have to go school.

Any spotter would tell you this is absolutely what is happening in real life. I can make the 77W look ridiculously tiny and switching lens it wouldn’t even fit in my picture.

As of the A350, you should read about it because its new nose design is nothing near to what is common. Depending on the angle once again it’d look like what we have in the game or not.

The A350 nose have the to front windshield ahead with a clear cut just after this but it’s really hard to explain and I bet harder to reproduce…

Edit : here are different “angles” (it’s really just the lens length, one is taken with a wide angle (I’d assume 25mm full frame) and overly edited, the other probably has a full frame 70mm (comparable to human vision)

On the last one you see how the front windshield cuts

I’ll just repeat what I already said:

Are there error with our aircraft and liveries? absolutely. We do our very best to minimize them but we are not immune to human error (small and big). It is entirely possible that we missed something that might seem obvious to our eagle eyed audience.

Will we fix it? our record shows that we always keep improving. Unfortunately we have tens of aircraft and hundreds of liveries to maintain and support so it might take some time for us to come back to an aircraft that was recently updated. Livery issues are usually fairly easy to fix. Geometry issues (when they are not perspective issues) are more complex as they might require re-texturing part of the aircraft which might require updates to all liveries to that aircraft (not taking into account the bandwidth that it requires to stream the updated aircraft to all users)

We try to keep aircraft development to approx. 6mo from start to (almost) finish. This is so we can do our best to satisfy the diverse needs and wants of our community in term of aircraft type and liveries. As a perfectionist myself, it pains me that there is a point where we have to say good enough and release. If we didn’t we would have a total of 5 aircraft and our users would still be flying in a handful of small regions.

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So, I have a question about the livery part. I can see how complex liveries could be off a little but for example the Saudia B77W livery seems simple for the middle line part but it was made too high.


image
taken from OP


Could the door for example not be used as a reference as to where the line should go down to? It seems that the B77F line was made perfectly but on the B77W it wasn’t.

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